Interesting read on American cars and trucks......
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
When it comes to perceived quality, the Japs have had years of hard-earned glory. But the gap has definitely narrowed between 'domestics' and imports. Having said that, I don't think one can generalise and say Japanese quality is superior anymore unless you are refering to Toyonda. On an overall quality basis, Nissan fall short, as do Mitsubishi... some would even argue that GM, Ford, DCX are ahead of them.
What was the thread about again.... oh yes an objective article about how well the domestics compare to imports?
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I don't want to get into this flamewar, nor defend the Empire of Japan, but there was a long history of tension in the Pacific between the US and Japan going back for many years before WWII. As for the specific "WTF did we do", we embargoed them in 1941.
I will say it's somewhat silly to compare the current situation of a peaceful nation with an economic strategy based on exporting high quality products to Pearl Harbor.
I will say it's somewhat silly to compare the current situation of a peaceful nation with an economic strategy based on exporting high quality products to Pearl Harbor.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
That's just it, buy the best ... but that is also subjective isn't it? Or do you just agree with magazine reviews and the like?
When it comes to perceived quality, the Japs have had years of hard-earned glory. But the gap has definitely narrowed between 'domestics' and imports. Having said that, I don't think one can generalise and say Japanese quality is superior anymore unless you are refering to Toyonda. On an overall quality basis, Nissan fall short, as do Mitsubishi... some would even argue that GM, Ford, DCX are ahead of them.
What was the thread about again.... oh yes an objective article about how well the domestics compare to imports?
When it comes to perceived quality, the Japs have had years of hard-earned glory. But the gap has definitely narrowed between 'domestics' and imports. Having said that, I don't think one can generalise and say Japanese quality is superior anymore unless you are refering to Toyonda. On an overall quality basis, Nissan fall short, as do Mitsubishi... some would even argue that GM, Ford, DCX are ahead of them.
What was the thread about again.... oh yes an objective article about how well the domestics compare to imports?
Since the camaro will be made in Canada, would you buy it as it is evidently not made in America? If you do, then aren't you doing the opposite of what is being preached here? How many American jobs wouldve been made if the camaro were built here instead of Canada?
To be honest, I really dont think some people here really care if they're imports or not. As none of them are complaining about the camaro being built in Canada or the BMWs/ Porsches from Europe. Its just cars that came from Asia (even if its Made in USA) thats bothering them. Superiority complex I guess.
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Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
I don't want to get into this flamewar, nor defend the Empire of Japan, but there was a long history of tension in the Pacific between the US and Japan going back for many years before WWII. As for the specific "WTF did we do", we embargoed them in 1941.
I will say it's somewhat silly to compare the current situation of a peaceful nation with an economic strategy based on exporting high quality products to Pearl Harbor.
I will say it's somewhat silly to compare the current situation of a peaceful nation with an economic strategy based on exporting high quality products to Pearl Harbor.
Now granted the Japanese absolutely started with the violence and aggression and were even deceitful about it by intentionally continuing peace talks in Washington DC until only minutes before they struck in Pearl Harbor when they all of a sudden let us know they didn't like us anymore.
But regardless, they had their reasons for attacking us - we were putting a serious hurt on their economy and more important their military strength for our own selfish reasons - they felt we were doing that because we intended to attack or were siding with their enemies.
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To be honest, I really dont think some people here really care if they're imports or not. As none of them are complaining about the camaro being built in Canada or the BMWs/ Porsches from Europe. Its just cars that came from Asia (even if its Made in USA) thats bothering them. Superiority complex I guess.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Some people only care about image... in that sense, their purchase excludes anything GM, Ford, or DCX. What does that say about me? I buy cars on the basis of performance, value, and FUN! GM (Holden) provides that in spades... always has. Yes, I am from Australia... even if my engine was built in Canada and the Tremec, in US/Mexico, I drive a GM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
Well, I think that Robert N has a point about GM/Ford building off-shore manufacturing capacity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Big Three has never seriously exported anything from their North American plants (except possibly SUVs to the Mid-East). That makes US auto manufacturing kinda a sitting duck as far competition goes -- as other companies increase their sales here, there's nothing to offset that in other markets.
Compare that to the German auto industry -- they've got even bigger cost structures than the US does, but they've been very successful at exporting their products around the world.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Big Three has never seriously exported anything from their North American plants (except possibly SUVs to the Mid-East). That makes US auto manufacturing kinda a sitting duck as far competition goes -- as other companies increase their sales here, there's nothing to offset that in other markets.
Compare that to the German auto industry -- they've got even bigger cost structures than the US does, but they've been very successful at exporting their products around the world.
There's a reason for that.
It's called "trade barriers" -
See......it isn't a level playing field.
I'll let Mr. Nashville explain that...............
Suffice it to say that it's next to impossible to break into the Japanese market with anything built anywhere else in the world. (that may be overstating it a bit....) ....but there are thousands of cases where American companies have tried to export products to Japan....and they finally just give up based on trade barriers and the ever-changing 'standards'.......
Thread Starter
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
You know, my Doctor told me that I need to reduce the stress in my life after that last heart procedure................
.
.
.
.
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.and frankly that's why I don't spend much time on this site anymore.........'cause you see, it isn't worth it.................I get more from meeting people one-on-one than I'll ever get on this particular site. Further, it isn't in my best interests, health-wise --to continually watch what happens on this site.
........I post an article that gives facts about American Car manufacturers -- and even predicted that this article would turn into a big controversy with a select few attacking it............
You know what? It does not matter how many facts you put in front of some people.....they'll believe what they want.
Robert-- stop with the "billions" that Toyota and Honda and Nissan are investing.......as you can see by the many articles posted -- and that are out there in the mainstream -- their amount of U.S. investment PALES in comparison to Ford and GM.
As to quality...did you ever notice that no one seems to remember what Japanese quality was in the early to mid to late 70s? (even early 80s?)
Why is it then, that America forgets those problems, yet cannot forget it when it's Ford and GM?
Why is it that America seems to hate anything American? (I say that in generalization.........but dear GOD, now we're beating ourselves up about allowing Saddam Hussein to be hanged.........are you KIDDING ME????????)
When I see the Toyota Commercial that talks about Toyota being an American company, I want to throw something at the TV screen.
What absolute complete rubbish.
What they AREN"T telling you is that we've made it incredibly easy for Toyota to compete in this country -- but it's next to impossible for ANY outside company to sell cars and trucks in Japan. Do you not suppose that the Japanese, perhaps, can see what's in their best interests? Yup...let's give 'em tax free status for forever! And Robert, don't tell me about States giving GM the same deal. Ford and GM are in the process of downsizing -- not upsizing...and when we DO build new plants, you can be assured that we are not getting the same deal that Toyota and the other foreign companies are..........moreover, we're still providing Union jobs. Notice we have unions. Notice they don't. There's that level playing field thing again..........
This morning, I opened an email from a friend in Boston....an editor at the Boston Globe simply took GM apart at the seams over a rental Pontiac G6 -- even claimed that only a GM car could make his family get car sick while driving down the road..........the article was infuriating ..to the point where the man (and I use that word loosely) should not be allowed to publish! Yup...no media bias there!
So....I ramble on.................
....to a few of you ...knock yourselves out.
You know it all.
Evidently you are involved daily in the auto industry and understand all of this. (yes, I'm being brash right now....it's late and I'm tired and I'm fed up with you.....)
There WILL be a reckoning within this country if we don't soon wake up and realize what's happening to our economy. It does not surprise me that Alan Greenspan retired....he had to be waking up at night screaming from the nightmares.........we're in uncharted territory my friends.
The best of 2007 to all of you.
I'm done!
It's been great!
.
.
.
.
.
.and frankly that's why I don't spend much time on this site anymore.........'cause you see, it isn't worth it.................I get more from meeting people one-on-one than I'll ever get on this particular site. Further, it isn't in my best interests, health-wise --to continually watch what happens on this site.
........I post an article that gives facts about American Car manufacturers -- and even predicted that this article would turn into a big controversy with a select few attacking it............
You know what? It does not matter how many facts you put in front of some people.....they'll believe what they want.
Robert-- stop with the "billions" that Toyota and Honda and Nissan are investing.......as you can see by the many articles posted -- and that are out there in the mainstream -- their amount of U.S. investment PALES in comparison to Ford and GM.
As to quality...did you ever notice that no one seems to remember what Japanese quality was in the early to mid to late 70s? (even early 80s?)
Why is it then, that America forgets those problems, yet cannot forget it when it's Ford and GM?
Why is it that America seems to hate anything American? (I say that in generalization.........but dear GOD, now we're beating ourselves up about allowing Saddam Hussein to be hanged.........are you KIDDING ME????????)
When I see the Toyota Commercial that talks about Toyota being an American company, I want to throw something at the TV screen.
What absolute complete rubbish.
What they AREN"T telling you is that we've made it incredibly easy for Toyota to compete in this country -- but it's next to impossible for ANY outside company to sell cars and trucks in Japan. Do you not suppose that the Japanese, perhaps, can see what's in their best interests? Yup...let's give 'em tax free status for forever! And Robert, don't tell me about States giving GM the same deal. Ford and GM are in the process of downsizing -- not upsizing...and when we DO build new plants, you can be assured that we are not getting the same deal that Toyota and the other foreign companies are..........moreover, we're still providing Union jobs. Notice we have unions. Notice they don't. There's that level playing field thing again..........
This morning, I opened an email from a friend in Boston....an editor at the Boston Globe simply took GM apart at the seams over a rental Pontiac G6 -- even claimed that only a GM car could make his family get car sick while driving down the road..........the article was infuriating ..to the point where the man (and I use that word loosely) should not be allowed to publish! Yup...no media bias there!
So....I ramble on.................
....to a few of you ...knock yourselves out.
You know it all.
Evidently you are involved daily in the auto industry and understand all of this. (yes, I'm being brash right now....it's late and I'm tired and I'm fed up with you.....)
There WILL be a reckoning within this country if we don't soon wake up and realize what's happening to our economy. It does not surprise me that Alan Greenspan retired....he had to be waking up at night screaming from the nightmares.........we're in uncharted territory my friends.
The best of 2007 to all of you.
I'm done!
It's been great!
Last edited by Fbodfather; Jan 3, 2007 at 12:12 AM.
Thread Starter
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
Wake up, America!
Thread Starter
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
I can't believe this thread is still going on!!! 
Since you want to complain about the deal Kia got, I can’t help but wonder if you bothered to actually look-up what Kia got for building its first U.S. factory in Georgia before you decided to complain abotu it? Somehow I doubt it that you did and since you probably didn't, here are the figures…
Kia is making a $1.2Billion capital investment in building its new plant.
The plant, alone, will create 2,800 new jobs. In addition, there is a commitment from five supplier companies to build facilities bringing another 2,600 jobs to the state.
At an average wage of $20/hour (including benefits) that’s a direct increase to Georgia’s economy of approximately $225Million/year…over a 20 year period, that’s an additional $4.5Billion increase to GA’s economy.
In exchange for all this, Georgia is giving up approximately $363Million which includes utility and infrastructure improvements, land, tax abatements/incentives, building and staffing a training center, etc. ($130Million of the $363 is from private [as in non governmental] organizations).
In other words, even if you ignore the initial $1.2B capital investment, the fist 1.5 years of full production will be more than a break-even point for the state and private investment. Also note, unless you happen to live in Georgia, the only way YOUR tax dollars are involved is in whatever dollars come from federal highway funds which is an obligation the Federal government has when interstate highways/U.S. routs are expanded regardless of “who” they are being expanded for.
As I said many posts ago, I don’t like this game of governments getting involved in wooing private industry to a location but that is the game being played today and many governments feel they must play it to stay competitive. That said, over a 20 year period, this particular agreement will give a $5.7Billion dollar increase to the state of Georgia while requiring an investment of 6.4% of that figure; that doesn’t look like a bad deal to me.
If you doubt my numbers; look them up for yourselves...they are freely available on the web.
Oh, an if some of you insist on clinging to where the 5 or 6 or 7 CENTS on the dollar that comprises a foreign manufacturer’s profit "go" and ignore the 93-94-95 cents they spend to make it (most of which is spent where they manufacture) then I suspect that you either have no real grasp of what it actually takes to build a vehicle or how much of a benefit to the economy that 93 cents on the dollar actually is to the local and U.S. economy or you simply don't want to be confused with the truth.
I guess you are the same people who would rather keep the $363illion and give up the $5.7Billion benefit; likewiese, I suppose you would rather see all these nameplates import everything they sell rather than building and spending here!
Since you want to complain about the deal Kia got, I can’t help but wonder if you bothered to actually look-up what Kia got for building its first U.S. factory in Georgia before you decided to complain abotu it? Somehow I doubt it that you did and since you probably didn't, here are the figures…
Kia is making a $1.2Billion capital investment in building its new plant.
The plant, alone, will create 2,800 new jobs. In addition, there is a commitment from five supplier companies to build facilities bringing another 2,600 jobs to the state.
At an average wage of $20/hour (including benefits) that’s a direct increase to Georgia’s economy of approximately $225Million/year…over a 20 year period, that’s an additional $4.5Billion increase to GA’s economy.
In exchange for all this, Georgia is giving up approximately $363Million which includes utility and infrastructure improvements, land, tax abatements/incentives, building and staffing a training center, etc. ($130Million of the $363 is from private [as in non governmental] organizations).
In other words, even if you ignore the initial $1.2B capital investment, the fist 1.5 years of full production will be more than a break-even point for the state and private investment. Also note, unless you happen to live in Georgia, the only way YOUR tax dollars are involved is in whatever dollars come from federal highway funds which is an obligation the Federal government has when interstate highways/U.S. routs are expanded regardless of “who” they are being expanded for.
As I said many posts ago, I don’t like this game of governments getting involved in wooing private industry to a location but that is the game being played today and many governments feel they must play it to stay competitive. That said, over a 20 year period, this particular agreement will give a $5.7Billion dollar increase to the state of Georgia while requiring an investment of 6.4% of that figure; that doesn’t look like a bad deal to me.
If you doubt my numbers; look them up for yourselves...they are freely available on the web.
Oh, an if some of you insist on clinging to where the 5 or 6 or 7 CENTS on the dollar that comprises a foreign manufacturer’s profit "go" and ignore the 93-94-95 cents they spend to make it (most of which is spent where they manufacture) then I suspect that you either have no real grasp of what it actually takes to build a vehicle or how much of a benefit to the economy that 93 cents on the dollar actually is to the local and U.S. economy or you simply don't want to be confused with the truth.
I guess you are the same people who would rather keep the $363illion and give up the $5.7Billion benefit; likewiese, I suppose you would rather see all these nameplates import everything they sell rather than building and spending here!
while we're on the subject of Georgia.......
Please enlighten everyone.
How many jobs are being eliminated with Ford/Atlanta Assembly and GM/Doraville closing?
On top of that, how many suppliers will lay off people?
And......don't forget.........GM and FORD WILL CONTINUE TO PAY TAXES ON THOSE PLANTS EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE CLOSED......MORE TAXES, IN FACT, THAN KIA WILL IN THE NEXT 10 TO 20 YEARS.
WAKE UP!
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Excellent points Scott, ALL of them, and great to hear from you again! AMEN to everything you said, I agree 110%. And BTW, maybe it can give you some comfort to know..........You're NOT alone! I have a similar reaction to the........."commercial" too, and at this point my family sees it coming, and they just roll their eyes whenever it comes on. What a load of horse****! I'm pretty sure I can speak for ALL of US, in saying, we hope you stick around for a long time. So, please take care of yourself, and try to have a Happy New Year. God knows it's gonna be a tough year, with so much to frustrate US these days. And yes please...............WAKE UP, AMERICA. Something I have been saying for quite some time now! I pray this is NOT the last we hear from you!!!!!!
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Only GM can be blamed for what is happening to them. Until GMs image gets better, people will keep buying what they perceive as the better car. And only GM can do something about this. So stop the complaining about unfair treatment and the bias media and regulations (unless you are in congress, u cant do anything about this). Its not Toyota's/Kia...etc's fault GM is suffering. Business is business. The better company with better products and service (whether fact or perceived) will always be on top. Build high quality cars consistently and people will come.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
I rented a Pontiac G6, the car was absolutely awesome. We drove it to Fla. and back, and it was flawless, it had way more power than I expected, the interior was gorgeous. I almost want to buy one, but I could really use a new truck. The media are lyers.............period. They are turning our people against US each and every day, right before our eyes. Some folks will just never see that fact. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it! Quite frustrating to say the least.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Yup, media tend to get biased but I dont think they're part of the conspiracy to dominate the world. Maybe GM should just hire a better marketing team...
Made in Japan back in the 70's meant cheap quality. Same as China right now. They were able to change this perception because they actually started building good quality products starting the late 80s. That's decades of hardwork and they are reaping it now. No offense, but domestic cars only started to once again improve their work around 2000 (more or less). And most of the people who've had bad experiences with them are still alive and have buying power. Its very hard to convince someone back if they were disappointed before. Plus, bad publicity spreads faster.
Made in Japan back in the 70's meant cheap quality. Same as China right now. They were able to change this perception because they actually started building good quality products starting the late 80s. That's decades of hardwork and they are reaping it now. No offense, but domestic cars only started to once again improve their work around 2000 (more or less). And most of the people who've had bad experiences with them are still alive and have buying power. Its very hard to convince someone back if they were disappointed before. Plus, bad publicity spreads faster.
Last edited by arjainz; Jan 3, 2007 at 03:38 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
I think the funniest part of all this is that Mr. Nashville waxes poetic about all the wonderful jobs Nissan and Kia are adding...and yet, those jobs offset the 50,000 some-odd hourly jobs GM and Ford are shedding by the end of next year? Not to mention the white collar workers that continue to be cut?
Indeed, thank god for the likes of Kia and Nissan...where would the American workforce be without them??
Keep buying your foreign cars, guys...and thinking that it really doesn't make a difference.
Perhaps you would like to be forced to having only a choice between GM or Ford but I for one am very pleased that we have a multitude of automotive choices today and that the choices from all the manufacturers are far better vehicles than used to be built. While some of the improvements would have happened anyway, I believe it fair to say that it is competition that has forced most of the changes of the past 20-30 years.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and it isn’t my intention to brow-beat GM/Ford for what they’ve done wrong or what they didn’t do years ago. However, that does not mean they should escape all responsibility for their current, respective, financial positions.
Yes, we should thank God for Kia and Nissan and every other company building facilities here and employing Americans – where we would be “without them” is a country with far more unemployed and a far less robust economy.