Interesting read on American cars and trucks......
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Dont worry. I get you. But there's really not much we can do abt trade barriers. Who the hell voted the lawmakers making those crazy concessions to those foreigners??...Oh, its us.... Anyways, like I said in the other thread, there are other American (non-automotive) that are making it big abroad. You win some, you lose some...Cant have it all.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
What I dont get is this:
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Labor laws and fair trade..a Camaro made in Canada on a fair wage by a country that holds the same values as us.
Can the same be said about China no. Like I said the debate has been already talked about on here and a few other threads. Proud myself even Robert has noted the BIG diffrences that it has.
Dont read to much into this but:
It is like saying were going out to dinner. Well a four star resturaunt and BK share the same thing. They both serve food. But they both differ vastly in the content and the way it is made.
Can the same be said about China no. Like I said the debate has been already talked about on here and a few other threads. Proud myself even Robert has noted the BIG diffrences that it has.
Dont read to much into this but:
It is like saying were going out to dinner. Well a four star resturaunt and BK share the same thing. They both serve food. But they both differ vastly in the content and the way it is made.
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Jan 5, 2007 at 06:31 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
I don’t think it’s a matter of just “pride”…people who understand the value of work; that there IS value in work apart from the paycheck do take pride in their work whether they are Americans or Japanese or any other nationality.
It's also true that it's becoming more and more difficult for the average American employee to take pride in his company because he knows that today, "his" company may at any moment send him an email to tell him that his job is being sent offshore to India; not because his company's truly needs to save the money but simply because they will do anything within the law to boost their bottom line.
However, if there is one major difference I’ve seen between many Americans today compared to many other cultures is that there is a large and growing segment of the American population who truly feel that they are “owed” something simply because they haven’t assumed room temperature.
It’s isn’t good enough that they have an opportunity to pursue success beyond most people’s comprehension; they think they should be paid six figures, have a $500K house, three cars in the driveway, and a 60” plasma TV simply because they are breathing…they truly believe that everybody else owes them something.
There are great places to live besides the U.S. and there are great people and cultures in many places…nevertheless, we so seldom realize that, even despite its problems, America IS the dream that most other people in the world have…we take totally for granted what most people can only dream about and few will ever see in their own society.
It's also true that it's becoming more and more difficult for the average American employee to take pride in his company because he knows that today, "his" company may at any moment send him an email to tell him that his job is being sent offshore to India; not because his company's truly needs to save the money but simply because they will do anything within the law to boost their bottom line.
However, if there is one major difference I’ve seen between many Americans today compared to many other cultures is that there is a large and growing segment of the American population who truly feel that they are “owed” something simply because they haven’t assumed room temperature.
It’s isn’t good enough that they have an opportunity to pursue success beyond most people’s comprehension; they think they should be paid six figures, have a $500K house, three cars in the driveway, and a 60” plasma TV simply because they are breathing…they truly believe that everybody else owes them something.
There are great places to live besides the U.S. and there are great people and cultures in many places…nevertheless, we so seldom realize that, even despite its problems, America IS the dream that most other people in the world have…we take totally for granted what most people can only dream about and few will ever see in their own society.
It's hard to keep debating someone on issues when you find commonalities!
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
It'a a pity the Asian countries didn't think the same as ordinary Americans as they'd be buying up those big American SUVs, if there were no trade barriers in place - they are great value for the $. But, no, ordinary Asians believe in buying local mainly because they do care about their industry's long term future! 
Gotta love the freedom of choice, hey?
But, no, ordinary Asians believe in buying local mainly because they do care about their industry's long term future! Gotta love the freedom of choice, hey?
FREEDOM OF CHOICE. What a wonderful thing we have.
Even if your choice is to kill yourself economically and socially - you can do it here and hold your head high and proud and say you did it your way!
No law against it - that's for sure.
I could choose to have 100% of my paycheck go straight to the red cross every month, leaving me nothing to pay bills with so I lose my home, my cars, my clothes, and I have nothing to eat or feed my famly with - but I CAN DO IT!
Not very wise or promoting my well-being, but I CAN DO IT!
<I hope some can see there is a tinge of intellectual sarcasm in that stuff I just wrote, to go along with the basic agreement that we have a good thing here.
>
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
What I dont get is this:
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
Regardless, I don't buy them anymore because if there are OTHER American-based companies that are STILL making comparable products here, THEY get my vote, and my cash.
As you all keep saying, "competition is a good thing"... and as I keep saying,"...as long as they are playing on even terms!"
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Labor laws and fair trade..a Camaro made in Canada on a fair wage by a country that holds the same values as us.
Can the same be said about China no. Like I said the debate has been already talked about on here and a few other threads. Proud myself even Robert has noted the BIG diffrences that it has.
Dont read to much into this but:
It is like saying were going out to dinner. Well a four star resturaunt and BK share the same thing. They both serve food. But they both differ vastly in the content and the way it is made.
Can the same be said about China no. Like I said the debate has been already talked about on here and a few other threads. Proud myself even Robert has noted the BIG diffrences that it has.
Dont read to much into this but:
It is like saying were going out to dinner. Well a four star resturaunt and BK share the same thing. They both serve food. But they both differ vastly in the content and the way it is made.
While it’s true that buying a Chevrolet, regardless of where it’s actually made, does help GM here in the U.S. and by extension, the U.S. economy; what you are ignoring is that there will be much greater economic benefit to Canada. While GM will make a few cents on the dollar in profit, the significant money spent (capital investment, salaries, taxes, etc, etc) will all be going to Canada and Canada’s economy.
Stated another way, if you want real economic benefit to the U.S. economy, it would be far, far better for our economy if every car GM made was made HERE even if it never sold another vehicle in the U.S. When a vehicle manufacturer builds a vehicle outside the U.S. that could have been made here, regardless of “where” that vehicle is sold, the U.S. is loosing tens of thousands of dollars of economic benefit for a few pennies of “profit”.
I know a lot of people want to hang their hat on “where the profit goes” but I’m telling you, I’ll give up the five or six or seven cents of “profit” all day long if the I can, instead, get the other ninety plus cents spent to make that little bit of profit and that’s what Canada will get; they get the ninety-five cents of economic benefit while GM in the U.S. will get the five cents.
Canada is certainly a “lot like us” in many ways and it’s pretty easy to think of them as a friendly next door neighbor rather than a sovereign country. Nevertheless, they ARE a different country and buying a Canadian built Camaro is going to help Canada’s economy a hell of a lot more than the little but of profit will help GM and the U.S. economy.
And regardless of all the above, it still just strikes me as WRONG for the all-American Camaro to be built outside of the U.S….it just shouldn’t be that way.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Jan 5, 2007 at 11:42 AM.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
What I dont get is this:
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
Someone here posted before that he doesnt buy Levis/Nikes anymore as they are already manufactured outside. Arent they still US companies? And yet its ok to buy a camaro made in Canada since GM is an American company?! Where's the consistency here?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Respectfully, Caps, there is a bit of rationalization in your post.
While it’s true that buying a Chevrolet, regardless of where it’s actually made, does help GM here in the U.S. and by extension, the U.S. economy; what you are ignoring is that there will be much greater economic benefit to Canada. While GM will make a few cents on the dollar in profit, the significant money spent (capital investment, salaries, taxes, etc, etc) will all be going to Canada and Canada’s economy.
Stated another way, if you want real economic benefit to the U.S. economy, it would be far, far better for our economy if every car GM made was made HERE even if it never sold another vehicle in the U.S. When a vehicle manufacturer builds a vehicle outside the U.S. that could have been made here, regardless of “where” that vehicle is sold, the U.S. is loosing tens of thousands of dollars of economic benefit for a few pennies of “profit”.
I know a lot of people want to hang their hat on “where the profit goes” but I’m telling you, I’ll give up the five or six or seven cents of “profit” all day long if the I can, instead, get the other ninety plus cents spent to make that little bit of profit and that’s what Canada will get; they get the ninety-five cents of economic benefit while GM in the U.S. will get the five cents.
Canada is certainly a “lot like us” in many ways and it’s pretty easy to think of them as a friendly next door neighbor rather than a sovereign country. Nevertheless, they ARE a different country and buying a Canadian built Camaro is going to help Canada’s economy a hell of a lot more than the little but of profit will help GM and the U.S. economy.
And regardless of all the above, it still just strikes me as WRONG for the all-American Camaro to be built outside of the U.S….it just shouldn’t be that way.
While it’s true that buying a Chevrolet, regardless of where it’s actually made, does help GM here in the U.S. and by extension, the U.S. economy; what you are ignoring is that there will be much greater economic benefit to Canada. While GM will make a few cents on the dollar in profit, the significant money spent (capital investment, salaries, taxes, etc, etc) will all be going to Canada and Canada’s economy.
Stated another way, if you want real economic benefit to the U.S. economy, it would be far, far better for our economy if every car GM made was made HERE even if it never sold another vehicle in the U.S. When a vehicle manufacturer builds a vehicle outside the U.S. that could have been made here, regardless of “where” that vehicle is sold, the U.S. is loosing tens of thousands of dollars of economic benefit for a few pennies of “profit”.
I know a lot of people want to hang their hat on “where the profit goes” but I’m telling you, I’ll give up the five or six or seven cents of “profit” all day long if the I can, instead, get the other ninety plus cents spent to make that little bit of profit and that’s what Canada will get; they get the ninety-five cents of economic benefit while GM in the U.S. will get the five cents.
Canada is certainly a “lot like us” in many ways and it’s pretty easy to think of them as a friendly next door neighbor rather than a sovereign country. Nevertheless, they ARE a different country and buying a Canadian built Camaro is going to help Canada’s economy a hell of a lot more than the little but of profit will help GM and the U.S. economy.
And regardless of all the above, it still just strikes me as WRONG for the all-American Camaro to be built outside of the U.S….it just shouldn’t be that way.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
To be an accurate comparison you would have to pick a one or a few “similar” models of vehicles from the transplant nameplates….taking an “average” for the transplants doesn’t work well because they “average” in the vehicles that are built here with the vehicles imported (and of course, a vehicle made in Japan or Germany isn’t going to have very much U.S. domestic parts content)!
Cars.com has an interesting article on this very subject (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....=&aff=national ). On its list of top 10 American cars (based on domestic parts content and the vehicle being built in the U.S.), the Toyota Camry is second only to the F150. Likewise, by their standard, the Camaro would not be considered and “American” car since it won’t be made in the U.S.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Certainly I'd much rather see Canada have the money that China but that aside, I'd still MUCH rather have that money that's going to go to Canada in the U.S. so that Americans have the money to buy stuff insted of Canadians having the money.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry but your input is a definite conflict of interest.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
I'd much rather this, much rather that... easy to say when you bat for the opposition, Robert. Actually you don't count anymore as you are dedicated to Nissan - you don't buy GM based on employment principle... so I don't know what credibility you carry to this forum?
Sorry but your input is a definite conflict of interest.
Sorry but your input is a definite conflict of interest.
By the way, my last Z/28 was purchased while I worked for the same employer I work for now so perhaps you ought to keep some of your assumptions to yourself about who I work for and why I do or don't buy certain vehiches.
Since "I don't count anymore" feel free to never read or comment on any other post I author.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Jan 5, 2007 at 03:13 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Jumping subject matter a tiny bit because I JUST READ THIS on the news a minute ago... but this applies 100% to investing in other nations and the Asian attitude behind it.
China investing in Africa
"In courting them, China has turned on its head the Western aid formula that has tied public works projects to progress in good governance."
Hmmm... we say, "We'll help, but you must stop treating your people badly..."
They say, "We'll help. You need not do anything but say "OK"."
"When asked about China's investment in nations with records of human rights abuses — notably Sudan and the Central African Republic — Li replied curtly: "Do you know what the meaning of human rights is? The basic meaning of human rights is survival — and development."
ANY Chinese government official can ask a Western journalist in a smug tone if WE know what the meaning of civil rights is?!?! OMFG!!!
"Some nations on Li's itinerary are sources of the raw materials China's booming economy craves. Countries like Guinea-Bissau may not have much to offer today, but could in years to come."
Can anybody see what's going on here?!?!
China is in dire need of NATURAL RESOURCES - you know, the ones I keep saying get converted to make wealth via manufacturing and building...
Africa has lots, but no infrastructure, and no money to develop one.
China sees a chance to "aquire" resources, while ignoring the issues of morality, humanity, and ethical treatment of the native people.
China is making an effort to "buy" accees to the resources they need by building a few bridges, buildings, water plants and such (things they will need to get the resources shipped out of the country anyways), while never aiding or providing assistance in stabilizing the genocide, murder, infighting, and numerous other problems going on there.
Much to my chagrin, the Africans they are talking with seem to be very eager to take these primative investment offerings in trade for mineral rights and access to their other resources.
Selling their souls for pennies IMO.
If they do this, in 20-40 years, they will be left with the same problems they have today, but be stripped of their resources, and they will have a few worn out bridges and empty buildings to stare at to boot. Not only that, but they will have pizzed-off all the Western nations that have tried to help them help themselves so far.
Mark my words, put them in the bank, and draw interest on them.
China investing in Africa
"In courting them, China has turned on its head the Western aid formula that has tied public works projects to progress in good governance."
Hmmm... we say, "We'll help, but you must stop treating your people badly..."
They say, "We'll help. You need not do anything but say "OK"."
"When asked about China's investment in nations with records of human rights abuses — notably Sudan and the Central African Republic — Li replied curtly: "Do you know what the meaning of human rights is? The basic meaning of human rights is survival — and development."
ANY Chinese government official can ask a Western journalist in a smug tone if WE know what the meaning of civil rights is?!?! OMFG!!!
"Some nations on Li's itinerary are sources of the raw materials China's booming economy craves. Countries like Guinea-Bissau may not have much to offer today, but could in years to come."
Can anybody see what's going on here?!?!
China is in dire need of NATURAL RESOURCES - you know, the ones I keep saying get converted to make wealth via manufacturing and building...
Africa has lots, but no infrastructure, and no money to develop one.
China sees a chance to "aquire" resources, while ignoring the issues of morality, humanity, and ethical treatment of the native people.
China is making an effort to "buy" accees to the resources they need by building a few bridges, buildings, water plants and such (things they will need to get the resources shipped out of the country anyways), while never aiding or providing assistance in stabilizing the genocide, murder, infighting, and numerous other problems going on there.
Much to my chagrin, the Africans they are talking with seem to be very eager to take these primative investment offerings in trade for mineral rights and access to their other resources.
Selling their souls for pennies IMO.
If they do this, in 20-40 years, they will be left with the same problems they have today, but be stripped of their resources, and they will have a few worn out bridges and empty buildings to stare at to boot. Not only that, but they will have pizzed-off all the Western nations that have tried to help them help themselves so far.
Mark my words, put them in the bank, and draw interest on them.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Robert your right, I would love the Camaro to be built here. That is a given. It being built in Canada is the best that can be done right now? So be it. It is not perfect and not the solution to getting this country back on track. Never will be. But its 100% betterthan having it built in another country that doesnt help us out like Canada. Canada is the U.S.'s #1 tourist, boarder trade income. Our economies as 2 countries are great assests to one another. Does that solve the problem of plants closing here? not at all. But at least it makes the possibility of this much needed car to come to the market sooner. I hope that when it comes up for the next platform that it does get transfered to the U.S. The thing I feel is YES it help canada more than anything. That is true but buying this Camaro is helping GM. Having GM around and making a buck is alot better than not having them around at all. I am in the market for a Camaro when it comes out. I wish it would be made elsewhere but at least for me I know that I will have a car I will enjoy. I hope Canada make a fine car for us, them even Europe ( it might be exported there) I know it might sound hipocritical but like you wont waver on the built cheaper thought I still say and you dissagree on the profit goes thing But thats the way we see it. And Robert Its not an argument point again to start another 15 page debate it just thats how you feel and how I feel. cut and dry . We all gotta do what we think is right. Some come to that conclusion in diffrent ways. But the bottom line is do what you think is right. We all can dissagree on many things but the thing we all must agree on is dont let this country fall. I agree on many thing you state is wrong with big busniess in the country. Your right 100% on alot of the problems we have in corperate america. If not fixed it doesn ot matter who or what we work for. Proud has stated why I bring this up in his last post about China. One I would like to point out. I live about 10 min from where it all started. Lexington, MA. I am not going to go into a story of what that is but I am sure you and I would hope every American knows what importance it has to this country. I see the green, the statue and so on and I always pass it with really a gawk for lack of a better word. Just the fact that this is it. This was the place. Just reafirmes what I feel is right and what should be done for this country. Kinda silly I know but the reason I bring it up I hope that Americans dont get the stupid look on thier faces like the King of England had when he got word on how the battles goes in the Americas and the messenger says the british soldiers got there asses handed to them. I just hope we dont have the royal shock treatment done to us by any threat from asia either economically or military.
But thats the way we see it. And Robert Its not an argument point again to start another 15 page debate it just thats how you feel and how I feel. cut and dry . We all gotta do what we think is right. Some come to that conclusion in diffrent ways. But the bottom line is do what you think is right. We all can dissagree on many things but the thing we all must agree on is dont let this country fall. I agree on many thing you state is wrong with big busniess in the country. Your right 100% on alot of the problems we have in corperate america. If not fixed it doesn ot matter who or what we work for. Proud has stated why I bring this up in his last post about China. One I would like to point out. I live about 10 min from where it all started. Lexington, MA. I am not going to go into a story of what that is but I am sure you and I would hope every American knows what importance it has to this country. I see the green, the statue and so on and I always pass it with really a gawk for lack of a better word. Just the fact that this is it. This was the place. Just reafirmes what I feel is right and what should be done for this country. Kinda silly I know but the reason I bring it up I hope that Americans dont get the stupid look on thier faces like the King of England had when he got word on how the battles goes in the Americas and the messenger says the british soldiers got there asses handed to them. I just hope we dont have the royal shock treatment done to us by any threat from asia either economically or military.
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Jan 5, 2007 at 04:03 PM.