As was noted in another thread, the J.D. Power people, while acknowldeging that GM and Ford are doing far better and that certain models have surpassed their competition from Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc...one of the problems that remain for them is that (and I'm paraphrasing here) they (GM/Ford) have not proven yet that they can do so across the borad and on a consistent basis.

They are going to have to keep it up and get even better for quite a while before they can hope to sway major public perception

 

Ah dont get too down on the board for the actions of a couple of us. When I say couple I mean 2 and when I say Us I mean, neither you nor me.

Like all message boards we have a couple of obnoxious members who are more concerned with winning a conversation than being right or staying with the general context of the conversation. They prove to prefer jumping out of the context of conversation for the sake of making themselves seem more right. (which is fundamentally more wrong than my spelling)

When their hand is called on it, they wiggle like worms because they arent here to exchange thoughts. They are here to sput out what they think and make everyone steady the waters around their opinions, no matter how dumb they seem to be.

But at the end of the day what's right is right and whats true will hold up.

Members like that have come and gone before and I wont mention any names for fear of waking the dead, lol.

 

What I am saying IS that no matter how good GM gets, it won't amount to hill of beans, as far as the media is concerned! They WILL continue to trash GM/Ford with glee, just as they have been doing for many years. And I don't think that they get together, and conspire either. What I think is, that they have this mindset that GM builds gas guzzlers.........umm....kay, and that you shouldn't buy their procucts because they are umm........just bad....Umm kay. I doesn't matter what they build, this additude WILL continue. It has been cultivated over many years of trashing the American brands. And what better way for a group of liberal anti-American pussies who hate their own country, to trash it, than by trashing said countries biggest automotive brands. They do NOT want USA as a THE superpower, they want one world power, they want US to be Europe. GM/Ford, have no place in their world, so they are on the chopping block. Unless people wise up, and not buy these papers, or watch these "news" organizations, IT WILL NOT change. They are lying about everything that pertains to America. They have many footsoldiers in their fight, much of phonywood, even the former peanut farmer is in on it, working their way with lie after lie ,into the hearts and minds of a brainwashed public. They are covering up what's happening in Iraq, the sexploits of the UN, twisting the truth, and basically anything that would make the USA look good, they won't be reporting on. Their job is to regain power for the democrats, and they don't really care about anything else. Informing the public, yeah............only on what they want you to think. A large portion of Americans, are oblivious sheep who are led by whatever the press feeds them. They will even believe the words of some of our worst enemies over the President of the United States. It IS a sad state of affairs, and one day they WILL be in for a rude awakening. Mark my words my friends, mark my words! It is a breath of fresh air, when someone from hollywood comes out on our side (Danny Bonaduce), and shows themselves to stick out from the rest of the mindless drones many of US adore so much.

 

Planned obsolescence as a design basis was abandoned about 1980 across the board. Because of the slow wheels that drive the auto industry, it took years to redesign "everything" in all cars and trucks, get retooled, and fill thepipeline with vehicles of good quality. On primary design vehicles of that day - like the Ford Taurus - quality was put first, and it showed. It was a revolutionary car in design, quality, dependability, and value.

While I will be the first to admit that ***** would crack, trim would occasionally come loose, or some other nuisances - I have had nothing BUT good dependable service from US carmakers since the mid-1980s, with SEVERAL vehicles over the 200k mile mark and still going. Even the original seat upholstery in my 1986 Bronco II (with 368k miles) looks GREAT.
So to say that US cars had no quality before 2000 is WAY out of bounds IMO.

Furthermore, a "reputation" is a subjective thing. It can be 180* from the factual truth but live like a house on fire because it is heresay, opinionated, and perceived - not always FACTUAL. What the media does is glorify negativity to get sales, and ignore accomplishments or satisfactory achievements because that does not make them money.

I personally think that you are a product of the influence that the media has created, and you have heard it so much that you actually believe it now.
The Taurus was not the best-seller in the USA for 10-12 years because it sucked.
Mustang does not have the most loyal buyers in the market because it sucked.
F-series and C/K-series trucks do not keep loyal buyers because they sucked.
Impy's didn't sell 200k / year because they sucked.
Everybody in the free world doesn't crave a Corvette because they sucked.

In reference to your comment about "made in Japan" meant "cheap"... well, with the exception of their cars, it STILL does to me. If you can find anything other than cars that are made there, it is still cheap... tools, home decor crap, etc. Thing is, most of it has simply moved to Taiwan from Japan, then to China from Taiwan, but it is still the same cheap crap.

 

Do you think GM and GM alone is 100% responsible for creating trade laws, tarriffs, and exchange rates between Japan and the USA?!?!

Do not trade laws, customs, tarriffs, and duties control the ability to get goods OUT of one country and INTO another for sale?!?!

Do not GOVERNMENTS control the ability to trade and allow business to be done inside their borders?!?!

If GM can not get their goods into Japan to even offer them to the buyers there because of trade policy, HOW CAN IT BE GM's FAULT?!?!

You see, you are in your tiny world of "me" again.
It's what you see on the dealer lots where you live that you make your choices from, and you think that is the entire world (to GM anyways).

What you are NOT seeing is what Scott just tried to explain above (again), and I have preached for years on his very board now... there are trade policies that are allowing "things" to happen that are immoral, inhumane, ujust, unfair, dangerous, and just plain wrong... but we fat/happy Americans turn the other cheek and IGNORE these things in the name of saving a buck for ourselves.

Sometimes, US manufacturers are simply not allowed to sell goods in a country - plain and simple. Sometimes, they have to meet guidelines/criteria that are far more stringent or costly than local manufacturers. Sometimes, they get to bring product right in - tariff-free - and drive it right to the dealership, but then a potential buyer is told they will have to pay a 20% tax on the imported item at the point of sale (not financed) making it utterly unappealing when shopped next to a domestic product that has no 20% tax on it. I have seen all of these cases in my travels in Asia.

In all instances above, GM has NOTHING to do with the reasons their product can not be sold successfully in another nation.
Yet you say "Only GM can be blamed for what is happening to them." ? ? ? You lost me.

You also say "The better company with better products and service (whether fact or perceived) will always be on top."
That is NOT true if the playing field is biased against one competitor.
If the US Government allows Toyota to import cars or parts freely into our economy and sell them next to our domestic offerings, there is a level playing field HERE, but if Japan does not allow US makers to import their goods freely and sell them next to domestic makers there, then there is NOT a level field, and there IS a distinct advantage for the Japanese makers because they have free access to 2 markets where the US maker only has access to 1 - by governmental policies, NOT corporate policies. In a case such as this, a better product only matters in one of the countries/markets, so the advantage of better product is negated substantially, and virtually rendered useless IMO.

OK - benefit of doubt... so maybe I misunderstood your statements... if so, please help an engineer with 8 years of University study and 20 years in the field understand your statement a little better... I'm all ears (or eyes in this case!), and always eager to learn something new.

 

The biggest advantage the Japanese has are better products than GM on average for the last 10-15 years. That was his point I am assuming when he said "GM did this to themself" which is true. Japan's tariffs while a very valid point did not create the situation GM is in today in regards to quality and playing catch up with the compteition here in the US. It has been pointed out many times like a broken record that GM even when it is just now able to compete with thier products becoming better, it will take years to prove their worth back to the consumers. You will not get instant recognition from the public just because GM is deciding to finally step up and build worthy vehicles. It does not take an 20 year engineer with 8 years of study to figure this out.

 

Where I was heading with that was to indicate to the original poster that he was correct... England has already lost most all of their car companies, and tons of their manufacturing. They lost theirs before we lost ours because they are a little ahead of us on the economic curve. The original poster made an assumption that it didn't seem like the end of the world to them after losing so much industry.

I was pointing out to them that it wasn't the end of the world, but it has certainly changed the economic landscape of England, and it has made it such that I personally would not consider living there if I had a choice. England is no bed of roses right now.

BTW - all of my statements WERE in USDollars! No conversion necessary.
I just turned in my expense report for the last trip[ on 19Dec06 and have the receipts and exchange rates all handy.
The cost of living I experienced there is significantly more than I am accustomed to here in the Charlotte/Atlanta region of the Southeast - I promise you.
For reference, the engineers in our Wigan plant are making exactly what we are making in the US, the Netherlands, and other European facilities. If you have some reference to their earned income being higher than that of US citizens, I'd like to read about it, because it's been my experience that most comparable jobs are paying comparable salaries. Taxation and duties might vary from country to country, but I have not seen a 30% difference in salary between burgewr flippers here and burger flippers there, or engineers here versus engineers there.

Regarding your comments about high priced real estate - you are correct. We have some rediculous prices in certain areas here too, but West Houghton (about 5 miles outside Wigan) is not exactly what I would call a metropolis like NYC, so paying US$400k for a 1200sq-ft unfurnished flat that is 5 miles from any major stores or activity in a place where cars are expensive to buy and gas is almost $7/gal seems a little, well... much.

You are also correct regarding the similarities you draw between England and US cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh, and others that are becoming ghost towns. Know what, instead of saying that "it's just the way things go", why don't we LEARN from what has happened in England, and do something DIFFERENT here so we can prevent our entire nation from becoming an overpriced placed to "barely exist"? England watched all their manufacturing go away, and are now reaping the benefits... what say we stop the process - even turn it around and start MAKING jobs and work for our citizens? Let's insist on equal trade with China before we lose ALL of our bargaining power with them. Let's start sending some of our US-made goods to China and get some of the money their new working class population is earning in our transplanted manufacturing facilities... whaddayasay?

 

Scott, I have a great deal of respect for you and what you mean to the Camaro/Firebird community but I respectfully disagree with many of your points.

No question, GM and Ford have far more $$$ invested in the U.S. than all the foreign nameplates (even combined, I suspect) but I would suggest that is as it should be given the 100 or so years that GM/Ford have been here (and primarily here) and given the overall size of GM/Ford - if we are going to compare sheer size/total dollars then there is no question that GM/Ford will win hands down but that does not render the money being invested by foreign nameplates in the U.S. either unimportant or meaningless to the economy.

I didn’t own any Japanese cars of that vintage (70’s/80’s) but I don’t recall Japanese quality being considered to be worse than American quality of the same period; quite the opposite, actually. Frankly, the “quality” of all cars of that period was pretty crappy compared to most offerings today. I can say that of the many GM vehicles I owned in the 70’s and 80’s their quality was nothing to write home about.

As to why the public can’t forgive GM/Ford for their quality problems I don’t know - I’ve never been much of a student of human psychology. It may simply be that there are now many people who are as loyal to Toyota/Honda, etc and won’t consider anything else as there have been those loyal to GM or Ford and wouldn’t consider anything from any other manufacturer.

I don’t like trade barriers no matter who has them…the late Milton Freedman would tell you that while protectionism may provide a temporary benefit, it simply doesn’t work for a country in the long term and I suspect Japan and others will prove that to be correct at some point. I hope you are not suggesting that the U.S. should start putting up trade barriers of its own - I am all in favor of the U.S. working to dissolve trade barriers that keep U.S. goods out but certainly don’t believe erecting barriers here is the answer.

To the best of my knowledge, no foreign nameplate has gotten tax breaks “forever” and please don’t try to tell me that GM/Ford wouldn’t be given similar incentive packages by a state/community if they were looking to expand/wanted to build a new plant in the U.S. (or that GM didn’t get a nice package, for the time, when it built the former Saturn plant in Spring Hill!).

Communities/States want capital investment and jobs (and professional sports teams, and special events, and etc, and etc) and they are offering packages to get them “here” rather than “there”…are you really going to try to convince us that Georgia offered a deal to Kia because it’s “Kia” and not “GM”? I’ll believe GM/Ford can’t get a deal when I see it.

As to the fact that the foreign nameplates building here aren’t providing “union jobs” all I can say is thank God!

It’s not the fault of the foreign nameplates that that particular “un-level playing field exists” – you and I both know that executives at Ford and GM would be doing handsprings if they could divorce themselves from the UAW – the most anti-UAW people I know are guys who used to work for Ford and GM and were UAW members; it’s only the technicians who don’t have any experience with the UAW that ever consider voting them in.



Respectfully, I believe you and I both know that GM’s and Ford’s problems and plant closings have little to do with Kia building its first U.S. plant in Georgia nor is it Kia’s responsibility to offset, job for job, those GM/Ford jobs that are being lost (however many those are). I’d suspect that Kia, building a brand new and probably much more efficient plant that those being closed can produce more cars with fewer employees – that’s just the way of industry and progress and who’s name is on the outside of the building has nothing to do with it. I truly hope GM/Ford will be building new plants in the U.S. again and when they do, I would certainly hope they take advantage of the latest manufacturing technology and not be providing "jobs" that could be be better done with technology.

I think we also both know that the suppliers’ problems are fare more systemic than whether GM or Ford closes plants and that some suppliers who might have laid off people will be able to keep them because of Kia and other nameplates who are building/expanding. An example I’ve used before, when I worked for Dana, we made as much when we sold an axle to Nissan as we did selling one to GM or Ford.

I’m not quit so convinced of your tax example but even if correct, that isn’t Kia’s fault and I would assume that GM and Ford will eventually sell their respective properties in which case, the tax responsibilities will shift as well.

 

Well now in all fairness, I'd say that the rising costs of healthcare and the legacy costs of retirees that are living 10-20 years past the average life expectancy of 40 years ago are probably as much to blame as anything for GM and Ford's financial situation over the last 10 years - even more so than "lame" product. (I refuse to acknowledge that GM or Ford intentionally made sh1++y product for the last 10 years... a lemon now and then - they all have those... but nobody would intentionally design and build something they knew would fail.) Penny-watchers like to categorize this as "legacy costs".

Ford and GM made competitive committments to new hires back in the 50s and 60s that were required to get good skilled labor in those days. They are bound to stand behind those committments today and are trying to do so.
I personally applaud them for sticking to their word despite the pains it has caused them, instead of seeking loopholes to get out from under the obligation.

Let's also talk about gas prices going up 140% in less than a year (in less than 2 months in some local cases after Katrina hit). For companies that were making what the American people were wanting (SUVs and TRUCK) to bank most of their profit on two niche segments was not very bright, but the loss of sales was not totally their fault either. SURE they should have never abandoned cars to concentrate on SUVs. SURE they should have been making SUVs more fuel efficient. I don't defend against any of that... but the sudden drop in sales of trucks and SUVs has been detrimental to Ford and GM's profits and cash flow based on their business models of the last decade (that were working GREAT until 9/11).
Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, but I can't blame Ford or GM for 9/11, Katrina, or the resulting jump in gas prices worldwide - they just took the lick from it.

So in the grand scheme of things, there is far more at hand than just a trade barrier or a temporary quality problem that comes into play when discussing their current positions. I still maintain my position though, that the government and buying public have afforded a financial advantage to Hondyota that was not provided to the domestic makers via agreements like NAFTA, lopsided and unmarshalled trade agreements, and generally guilt-free buying practices.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying that there is no one single point of blame for the US makers' situation. However, in the theme of this thread, the unfair playing field afforded the competition (by our government and theirs) is not insignificant, and ignoring it today is not going to make it any better.

 

Before I even dig into this one, I am going to POLITELY and with a smiley ask you to carefully reconsider this opening paragraph.

You might just want to do a little digging into Ford Motor Company and see how deep they run in the heritage and infrastructure of England, Australia, and other countries around the world. Same goes for GM.

Henry Ford took his company to other countries that opened their doors to his way of business. He built factories in those countries to produce locally and employ local people. His philosophy was that his people needed good-paying jobs to be able to buy his product. He was also VERY philanthropical everywhere he went. Ford was huge in Germany until the outbreak of WWII, and Henry himself was very distraught at his loss of friendship with Hitler in the late 1930s - Hitler, who gave him the German Golden Eagle award... the highest award that Germany can bestow on a civilian. To this day, the machinist and tradeschool educations that Ford Motor Company funded are legendary and their graduates are very marketable.

What I am getting at is that for MANY years now, Ford and GM have gone to other nations and played by their rules, invested in their communities, schools, infrastructure, etc, and had a go of it - WHENEVER THEY WERE ALLOWED TO DO SO. Much like Hondyota is doing here in the USA because we are allowing them to do so.

But funny thing that we are not allowed to go into the homeland of those "other" companies and do the same, isn't it?

 

I don't really disagree with the above.

As I said, I dislike barriers to free and open trade no matter which side of the border they exist on and I'm all for the U.S. doing whatever it can to dissolve the barriers that exist whether they are with Japan or any other country.

The point I was trying to make, however, is that the Japanese auto industry is quite "young" compared to GM/Ford...they've only been building plants here about 25 years or so (with many players much more recent than that). So, to downplay the significance of their collective investment/benefit to the U.S. economy because they haven't invested as much, in total, as Ford/GM is a bit disingenuous given that Ford/GM have been here (in one form or another) for over a century.

Let’s also not forget that with a total population of around 125million and a relatively small land mass, I’m not sure how “big” a market could ever exist for a Ford or a GM even if they were totally free to build plants/import product with no restrictions at all.

 

Well, you may be correct about Japan, but there is also Europe and many other world markets open to US exports.

My point is that US Auto Exports have never really been tried -- the vast majority of NA auto production is designed for domestic consumption only. Possibly with certain assumptions that proved to be incorrect (that Americans were willing to live with a lower quality interior, for example). This has put GM at a disadvantage against other manufacturers selling "world cars" that are largely identical for all markets.

 

Sidebar - I just got off the phone with one of our casting providers in Pennsylvania. He just told me he will be a week to 2 weeks late getting me parts for my equipment because the heat-treater they used for years closed-up on 31Dec.

Now, the Greensburg, PA area is down to 2 heat treaters left in the local area - and this only a few minutes outside of "Steel City", USA. The remaining shops have downsized and cut back to stay lean and now they can't handle the extra load from the closed shop(s) that is coming in.

Another local firm there ABB, Inc just announced that they are moving their vessel manufacturing line to a new facility in China, outside of Shanghai. This will cause an additional 300+ layoffs in the next few months.

I decided to post this because I was typing one of the above posts during a break when my phone rang - it was this call and this info.

You see, we are giving it away one little dollar at a time, yet we don't see the pile of money getting drastically smaller each minute we look at it, or we think of 100 jobs here and 200 jobs there as "acceptable", "it's just part of doing business", or "they come and they go", so we don't think anything is really wrong. Best excuse yet - "Well, at least I'm not the one losing my job".

I liken it to training one's self to jump from a plane without a parachute...
Today, I jump from 12" down to the floor - no problem.
Tomorrow 13" - no problem.
The next day, 14" - no problem.
So I keep increasing my height by 1" every day for the nextl 16 years.
Then, I will be able to jump from 500' in the air with no parachute and hit the ground safely - no problem... RIGHT?

SURE. NO PROBLEM.

It won't take the US 16 years to find out that this current trend is NOT working in our favor.

 

Your second paragraph is dead-on. American company leaders were dead-set that American consumers were idiots that would buy what they were offered. In some ways they were right IMO, but in the case of cars and electronics, the temtations of multiple offerings (some from offshore) proved the company directors were not 100% right. Even today we see that Aussie cars and European cars offer a visibly better interior and arguably better suspensions that most US offerings. Sad, but true.

As for the first paragraph, why would Ford or GM want to "export" a car to a country that already makes cars under their own name? If the country was open to sales of a Ford or GM product, they typically built a plant there and produced it there. I'd rather see Ford make a Right-drive Focus in Europe to sell locally there to people they employ there, and make a Left-drive Focus here to sell to people employed here - as opposed to making the RH drive unit here and the LH unit there and them crossing paths on a ship in the Atlantic somewhere. Share engines and trannys and seats and radios and make those components at plants that are most competitive, but assemble and distribute locally to the end consumer - the one that needs the job to buy your product.

Hondyota does not own as many brands in as many countries as Ford or GM. They carry their 2 main marques with them wherever they go, and essentially the same designs too. That's their thing. They like to keep designs in-house and under their control, not dole it out to each nation to tweek as they see fit. Not right or wrong, just different.

FWIW, Ford and GM both have exported to China in limited amounts. GM was first to launch a partnership with the Chinese government and start building there. Ford is just coming into their own in China now - late but not last.

Maybe I have confused some people.
I personally do not want to make 100% of all vehicles in the world here in the USA by Ford and GM.
I want a fair shake at every market that wants a fair shake at mine.
I want them to make cars (and everything else) under the same ethical and moral guidelines that we do here in the USA.
I want to be stewards of the Earth the same way we try to be here in the USA.
I want them to treat people equitably and humanely like we do in the USA.
I am all for trading, but not selling ourselves out - ya know?

And honestly, I want the people of the USA to begin to appreciate what we have here and just how precious it is. We do NOT want to live like many other nations do, yet so many people here don't understand how it is elsewhere, and they don't care. They think their freedoms to come and go, to have a home and land, to drive a car, to go to the movies, to access the internet, to have a good job, to have 3 squares a day... all of this is guaranteed to them because they are American. Well, it's going to drag most all of us down in order for those few with blinders on to learn their lesson, and I personally don't want to be dragged down there! I've seen it! It ain't pretty!

 

Right on! Very accurate discription of what the media does BTW. And IMO, there are many products of this, walking around out there. I have a name for them......sheep! Preach on. You do much better than I ever could, with this. Kudos to you my friend!