I think it's very fair to say there are sheep on both sides of the fence here, and the funny thing is they both seem to enjoy the sound of their own ruckus a little too much.......

 

This is key. There seems to be too much of the attitude in the U.S. these days that we are a bunch of neanderthals and brutes, with backwards thinking, while Europeans and Asians just have their $hit together. They are enlightened, and we are hopelessly in the dark. It's like a major "the grass must be greener" situation.

My brother is living in Germany right now (U.S. Army ), and he DEFINITELY appreciates home. That's not to say there aren't good things about Germany (or other places), or that they don't have interesting culture and history. But when you get down to it, there are a lot of things in the U.S. which are taken for granted here and which are not available in other lands.

Again, I'm not knocking Germany or Europe. Back in H.S. I spent 3+ weeks staying with a family in Germany. I loved it, and am very glad I had the experience. I met wonderful people, saw wonderful sights, ate good food, and so on. I also spent a week in London when I was in college. Again, a great experience. But I didn't come away thinking that European life is magically better than ours... I've never had the occasion to visit Japan or any Asian countries at this point.

A little tangent to the discussion, but that latter part of Proud's post opened the door for me.

 

Its true. And people on here come from all walks of life, All with great input. I think if anyone is the most outspoken and hey I am biased maybee Proud Pony but right on the money. If were talking about cars and trucks we are talking about the welfare of the industry but also the people that provide and work for these services. Now millions of people in the U.S. buy, work or support import cars and that in turn supports our economy in the near future and I am sure as some know there are some that do work for said companies we are talking about, Ford, GM, DCX, Nissan Toyota and so on. These people live thier lives to do whats best for them. Thats good that you can provide. The thing is the radical idea that in the long run. This idea we have as a nation being as powerful as it is now to defend itself both military and economicaly. Well thats the devide. If your selfish I think you have one way of looking at it. But who know. Others it might be the history of you, your family, town state or country that you see what needs to be "fixed".
The one thing now is I see alot of what I said in small parts really come out now. The Culture of asia plays a big part of it. I mentioned it before but by a few it got pushed aside. But go back and read the last 3-4 from this thread. The asian culture, Japan China want to do one thing..dominate. I said it before it has been said here also and I think that is the bottom line. Any american industry is hard to incorperate itself in a culture that deams it is lowering yourself if you buy, work or enjoy things not from your country. Kinda sad where here in the U.S. it doesnt matter to some. This way of thinking is what is hurting us more than anything. If we took as I said before a page out of the culture that is asia and be proud of who we are as a nation we will be alot better off and not looking at asia from the outside but understanding the way they work and do busniess. If and when we do that will can rectify the problems we have here. But we have millions of people just here in the U.S. that do think Toyota is as American as Apple Pie, just cause it is built in the U.S. by Americans. Well If so gotta break it to you the pies got some bad apples in it. The one thing Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia and so on are here for is to do what has been said. Take us over by pencil and paper and not bullets. Once China becomes what I hope it does not. Pencil and paper might be the least of our worries.
Also I was thinking about the Britan thing but wasnt sure how to bring it up as if it was relivant. Britan controled the world and now it is what I hope we are not heading down as far as the same path. Is it inevitible?? Who knows?? Is Asia supposed to be the global area for superiority in this new era of the world? Maybee it is maybee it isnt? But would like to fight for what I have in my country as much as it is shrinking in on us for things we call U.S. values and hopes.
Side note: Scott, great post and it might get a little heated and directed at some people in here but you know what. It is part of what alot of us feel here is right wrong and not right and not wrong. If that heated then I hope there are people in GM as I have stated that show this kinda support for Old Glory when they go to work every morning. Not mindless coperate neanderthals like some think

 

You guys are right. From now on, I'll make sure eveything I buy is made in USA. But wait, the Camaro will not be made in USA....too bad...

 

your right.Either your joking or you just dont get it.. The argument has been said a few times. It is built in Canada. But the parent company is from where? The people that make the final dec. are from where? It ultimatly helps what country? GM is doing everything it can right now to stay in the game. If the Camaro is being built in one of the best facilities it has operaton right now with one of the best initial quality standards why not?
Well few things are going for it. Canada is in good standing with the U.S. no slave labor and they hold the same values for thier country as I and a few others do for this country. I never said build the wall and hold the fort. A Camaro being built is a good thing for everyone here and there in Canada. The funny thing is the U.S and Canada are more tied to one another for survival than one would admit. They feed off the good one another does. I will be buying a 5th gen from GM, as I did my 4th gen also built in Canada. Just like anyone buying a GTO from Holden. GM as an American company benifits from it. And the more support shown the more likly that they now in the light of the errors should make the better choices when product come down the pipe and where to put them. If GM is healthy I do not see why not they would imploy U.S. workers..IF the U.S. people back GM like they should.
The thing is as I have stated before the idea of supporting the products that are being made that help this countries companies. GM chose this plant as it is one that will make this car competative and keep GM in the game. I will not abandon them for that choice. I also said before Canada is the #1 country that puts tourist, boarder trade money into our economy. Sure that not helping a family that GM put out of a job. No it is not but you know what If the Camaro was not being made and GM keeps falling. It might not be the family, it could be the city or the whole town that goes with him. But no maybee this product that GM builds in Canada keeps say the dealer open, or the parts guy, or the suplier. We been up and down this road on this thread and others and the thing that it goes back to. Who do you support. What economy is more vital. A healthy North American economy? or a rising Asian economy? My choice is I am buying a 5th gen Camaro built in Canada for General Motors here in the U.S.

 

Well, what about the jobs dealers, parts guys and communities wouldn't have if Toyota/Kia didnt build a plant here? Its all the same. Do u think you would be driving very good GM cars now without these competition? I doubt it. I also dont agree on the statement that if u buy Toyota (even if its made here), you're not helping the US economy. Tell that to the American families employed w/ Toyota/Kia.

I want GM to rise again but I'm glad that we have a lot more choices now than when everything was just by the big 3. Wouldnt that be dull. And you wouldnt have ricers to beat on the street anymore. As for the unfair trade laws and biased media, well, I think GM should just hire lobbyists (if they already have one, replace them) and get a new Marketing team.

 

I would suggest that if you (you in the general sense) were going to be honest, you would have to admit that there is just something “wrong” with GM building the great, all American, “see the USA in your Chevrolet” Camaro in Canada!

I’ve heard the initial quality standards/efficiency arguments before and maybe I’m just getting cynical in my old age but I very much suspect that if the whole truth were known, the overriding reason the fifth generation will be built in Canada is that GM can do it there for less cost than in the U.S. (which is why most businesses do most things in one place vs. another).

I’m not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing and I am well aware that my 2000 Z/28 was made in Canada…but surely one can see just a bit of irony here – except for, perhaps, the Corvette, there is hardly a more “American” car to most people than the Camaro yet it’s being built outside the U.S. (albeit not all that far outside).

 

I just can't think of a GM car built in Canada as being an "import". Our countries are so similar and rely on each other so much it is hard to think of F bodies built in Canada as "imports" to me.

 

"Import - to bring in from a foreign country or other source, esp. for resale. " Canada, no matter how close to the US is a foreign country. I hate to say this, but the Camaro will be an import car.

Ok so now it shouldnt be just "Buy Made in USA" anymore. It should be "Buy made in North America".

 

While I understand how you feel, there simply is no logic involved when a Toyota built in the United States by American citizens is called an "import" while a Chevrolet built outside the U.S. by non-U.S. citizens is called a "domestic".

It has much more to do with feelings, politics and marketing than logic...the terms "domestic" and "import" simply don't apply to a globalized economy and a globalized automotive industry the way those terms did 50 years ago.

 

I was thinking more in terms of something like Ford/NA sending the Fusion over to Europe and Ford/EU sending the Mondeo back here. Assuming the Fusion was good enough to sell in Europe, that is. This would give both markets a broader range of models and immunize assembly operations somewhat from the fluctuations in their local markets.

That might not always be economical (otherwise the Japanese wouldn't be building NA assembly plants for their high-volume cars), but I think it would put the Big Two in a better competitive position relative to their multinational rivals.

Ultimately, I don't think it's possible to have a successful manufacturing economy unless it's a globally-completive export-based economy. GM/Ford historically have not run their NA operations in this manner.

 

[side note]Robert, you did not have a 2000 Z/28.

You may have had a 2000 (Camaro) Z28, but not a Z/28.



[/side note]

 

Well, there is nothing in appropriate in referring to a Camaro Z/28 as just a Z/28 just as there is nothing wrong with referring to a Firebird TransAm as simply a TransAm.

If we are really going to get technical where would it stop…I mean it’s actually a Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 and should we also add the “GM” somewhere in there???

Also, we all know that while there are more commonalities than differences between a base Camaro/Firebird and the Z/28 and TransAm versions, the differences that do exist are rather substantial.

 

No, he's saying there is no "/" in there. The "Z/28" moniker is decades old now - at some point it dropped the slash and just became Z28.

 

No, you missed my point. I was afraid I would muck it up by putting (Camaro) in there, but I tried to illustrate it with the bold type.

There is no "/" in Z28, as there was in the past. Your car was a Z28, not a Z/28. That is what I was trying to get at.

Anyway, carry on...