SSbaby

I'm still trying to work you out... you made the statement about being disappointed Camaro is being built in Canada... so where was your Z/28 built when you bought it? You claim Nissan is 'American' while argue about Chrysler's country of origin... and write "I'm disappointed Camaro isn't being built in the US". How strange are you man?

Don't forget, I'm not the enigma.

PS I wrote my comments early in the morning after a night on the turps but I still have the ability to recognize an odd comment!

Robert_Nashville

You may believe you can recognize and “odd comment” but either your reading comprehension level leaves something to be desired or you simply ignore posts you don’t happen to like or want to deal with.

Point 1: I have not said “Nissan is American”…what I have said repeatedly is that buying a vehicle manufactured in the U.S. is equally (or at least nearly so) as beneficial to the U.S. economy as buying any other vehicle made in the U.S. regardless of what nameplates happen to be on the respective vehicles.

A GM nameplate vehicle, be it a Canadian made Camaro or an Australian made GTO is far less beneficial overall to the U.S. than buying a Camry made in Kentucky or an Altima made in Tennessee. I don’t care whether a person considers any of the nameplates “American” or not…when it comes to huge, multi-national corporations like GM and Toyota and the rest, trying to pigeon hole one as “American” and another “not American” becomes almost pointless. What I’m talking about and what I consider far more important is the benefit to the U.S. economy; not semantics presented as patriotism.


Point 2: What I’ve said about Chrysler should be easy to understand. I don’t care if a person considers Chrysler “American” or not; what I have a problem with are those who would deride or dismiss the contribution to the U.S. economy by a U.S. built Toyota or Honda vehicle because of their “foreign ownership” and “where the profits go” while refusing to apply the same standard to Chrysler which is clearly just as “foreign owned” as Toyota and who’s profits go directly to Germany…as I’ve said many times now, I don’t happen to agree with the “where the profits go” measuring stick but if it’s going to be used at all, it ought to at least be used consistently.

That said, the only reason Chrysler got raised in the first place was because of the stupid salesmen quoted in the article!


Point 3: I’ve already talked about my Z/28 both in other posts in this thread and in other threads…I’m well aware of “where” my Z/28 was built. My reasons for pointing out that the fifth gen will once again be built in Canada is to further demonstrate how flimsy the “where the profits go” argument really is and to point out that many people will deride buying a U.S. built Toyota and concurrently rationalize buying a Camaro made outside the U.S.

Especially at a time when GM is closing many U.S. plants and getting rid of thousands of U.S. employees, it’s especially troublesome to me to have the Camaro built, once again, outside of the U.S. especially when many of the people who see nothing wrong with that picture will attack me (not my ideas but me, personally) because I would dare to buy “foreign” vehicles!

I’ve been buying GM vehicles (with an occasional Ford or Chrysler product mixed in) probably longer than you’ve been alive so yes, I feel I have a right to be “disappointed” that GM is once again building the Camaro in Canada…about the only thing it could do that was more wrong would be if they moved Corvette production to Mexico.


One more thing:GM deciding to built the fifth generation in Canada does serve to support what I’ve been saying for a long time now which is that GM is going to do what is most advantageous for GM – that GM’s primary goal, like any other large company, is to do whatever it takes to boost its profitability.

Let’s face it, if GM was really as “American” and as patriotic as some on this board want to believe it is, GM wouldn’t be sending production to Canada or Mexico or anyplace else while they had excess capacity and employees in the U.S.

I don’t say that makes them evil, I just say that makes them a company like any other company and to attempt to measure any person’s patriotism based on what nameplate is on his chosen vehicle is rather shallow.

Eric Bryant

As of Dec 2005, the trade deficit with Canada surpassed the trade deficit with Japan. So, er, where's all this "help" from the north?

SSbaby

Robert if you were that patriotic and care so much about the US economy and American jobs... why the 350Z?... and I believe you also stated the some time back that the 2009 Nissan GTR would also be in your driveway?

It just doesn't make sense to me that you profess to know what's best for the American economy and claim that buying a US built Nissan is great for America ... and yet you drive imported (350Z) and intend to drive another import (GTR)? It's like something a politician would say... Yes, I know you've bought some GM, Fords in the past... but my point still stands. Forgive me for not taking you very seriously but tt sounds like you haven't bought many American built cars?

Caps94ZODG

Well I looked it up since i had no clue as far as the trade deficit. But in fact from what I looked up. It does not state that and some sites it actually said it closed the gap in 2006. But here are a few that caught my eye and easy to read.
This one shows the top trade partners with the U.S.
Canada is not past Japan.
http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_m...deDeficit.html

also in this one
http://internationaltrade.suite101.c..._trade_buddies

and to sum that problem up is a good little read right here. Kinda throws that unbalanced playing feild into the mix. It is the U.S.'s fault for doing it. We are doing it to ourselves.
But here like I said a good read:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006...ord10feb06.htm

What I meant as "help" was that living here in Boston there is a huge Canadian population here. Many visitors and the likes. But from what I have seen and been told by many of them that when relatives come visit they do alot of shopping and so on. Many of the products are alot cheaper to buy in the U.S. than Canada. Some have told me that living near the boarder like millions do they jump across buy a few things a few times a week to avoid declaring anything paying the tax and go back. That is what I am talking about. Millions of Canadians each week. putting money back into this country. I had a link to this, I posted it in an older post if I can find it i will. But what I said was U.S.'s #1 tourist, boarder trade income
Not trade as in products i meant crossingthe boarder spending, or lack of a better term "tourist" as I remember the article saying.

SSbaby

It doesn't matter where GM choose to build their cars. GM has chosen to build in Canada because it obviously makes economic sense. How is it different to Nissan building cars away from Japan?

The more I think about Robert's arguments, the more confused I become. Should Robert be disappointed that Nissan are building cars outside of Japan because its costing Japanese jobs or is Robert happy that Nissan are providing US jobs although Robert still chooses to drive imported vehicles?

Yes Robert, these questions are addressed to you.

Robert_Nashville

Why do you insist on quoting me as saying things I have not said? Are you incapable of actually reading what I’ve written and commenting on what I’ve actually said rather than what you apparently want to hear?

Tell me exactly where I’ve “professed” to know what’s best for the American economy” or that buying a U.S. built Nissan is “great” for America?

I do have a basis and an ability to make informed observations about economic matters, U.S. or otherwise since that has been both my undergraduate training and my career for many years…and it is quite accurate to say that buying a U.S. built ANYTHING is better (I’ve never used the word “great”) for the U.S. economy than an non-U.S. built anything…that shouldn’t be a difficult concept to understand other than by those who simply refuse to see.

As to whether I’ve bought “many” “American built” cars or not I suppose that is a matter of perspective…some people buy new cars a lot more frequently than I do so the number I’ve owned may pale in comparison to the number owned by other people over the same time period. That aside, here are some of the more noteworthy vehicles I’ve owned…

1973 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400
1974 Oldsmobile Cutlass
1975 Oldsmobile Cutlass Salon
1976 Pontiac Firebird TransAm
1979 Pontiac Firebird TransAm
1982 Audi GT
1985 Dodge Omni GLH
1987 Ford Bronco
1980 Mercury Grand Marquis (purchased used in 1990)
1990 Ford Festiva
1993 Ford F150
2000 Camaro Z/28
2004 Nissan 350Z
2005 Nissan Titan
2007 Infiniti QX56 (on order)

I’ve already addressed the issue of my owning a 350Z once in this thread already but since you either have already forgotten that or decided to ignore it I’ll address it again.

Yes, I own a 350Z. I bought an “imported” 350Z not because it’s imported but because they aren’t made in the U.S.

Since you seem to be implying that I should have bought something else, perhaps you could enlighten me on what U.S. built car I could have bought in 2004 that would provide the same level of performance and near the same price point as my 350Z? I considered a “Vette but wasn’t going to pay another $25-$30K for a car that was soon to be replaced by the C6. Just on principle alone I will never buy a Mustang and there was no Camaro/Firebird so tell me, what should I have bought?

Tell me, what great American made sports car was available with similar performance to my 350Z with an MSRP of around $27K? Please tell me what American made high-performance sports car, aside from a Corvette at twice the price (and at the end of its generation) could I have bought instead of a 350Z? Obviously I missed it so please do tell me what I should have bought.

As to the GT-R…yes, as things stand right now I am planning to have one although a lot can change between now and when the GT-R is available so who knows.

Caps94ZODG

if there was though Robert would you have?? Seriously..
The only competitor was the mustang..but say if there was a car you would?

But the only thing that I could come close is the Dodge SRT-4 ...and thats pushing it for many diffrent reasons I know...but aside from the Mustang there was nothing..really..

Robert_Nashville

How can I possibly answer a question like that, Caps? Sure, if there had been something I woudl have considered it but there wasn't so I didn't.

I respect Mustangs but I'd walk or just use my bicycle before I would ever buy one and GM had nothing to offer so I don't know where SSBaby thinks I was supposed to go.

Robert_Nashville

How can you be this blind SSbaby and still drive a car?

If you look at the decision of where to build only as an economic issue for the company then you are right, it doesn’t matter where GM builds its cars and it’s the same for any other company (Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc., etc.). However, if a person truly cares about the U.S. economy then it very much matters WHERE GM (and every other manufacturer) chooses to build their cars – how can you not understand that?

As to the rest of it, I guess I’m a horrible person because over the course of the last 33 years, I’ve owed two imported vehicles and may, in a couple of years, buy yet another imported vehicle…I’m sure I’ve single handedly brought GM to its knees..that's it...we now know WHO is responsible for GM loosing market share...it's all my fault!

With that said, I see no reason why I should further respond to an Australian telling me how to be a good American!

SSbaby

Robert, let's not play games now... did you not say (on this page)...
You may be a slippery character but you don't get off that easy.

We've discussed this before and I did quote that GM do more R&D work in the US, Australia, Europe than any Asian maker would in the same continents. So how could you possibly arrive at the conclusion that it's as good for the US economy to buy a Titan as it is a Tahoe?

With regards to not buying local... you make the statement that GM building cars in a non-US country is a terrible thing for America yet in the same sentence you think it's also 'excusable' to buy an import or two. Don't give me the line about needing the 350Z (you could have had a Mustang if you wanted) when the 2009 GTR lobs it will definitely cost more money than Corvette- I don't buy your argument there (in fact, I don't buy anything you write).

How could anybody criticize GM for electing to build Camaro in Canada and yet that person prefers to drive imported cars? That's hypocritical! You're comments are so full of holes and contradictions that you don't actually believe what you write. I can't believe you can't see the obvious flaws in your comments... maybe you're just stubborn... in fact, I know your stubborn.

With regards to your belittling remarks about an Aussie giving an American some direction... once again you show just how errant you can be. It's not about telling you what you should do with your life... but an attempt on my part to underline your numerous contradictions throughout this thread!

Given you won't be responding to my posts anymore, could I ask you to do us a favour... next time you're in Japan, could you remind the Nissan chiefs that building cars outside of Japan costs Japanese jobs. They should learn from GM's mistake in deciding to build Camaro in Canada (even though it's always been built there)... as it's clearly not in the US of A's best interest.

Sorry if I'm making sense Robert! I've made my point and I'm also done.

Robert_Nashville

Yes, I said the above, now tell me exactly where in that statement did I hold myself out to “profess to know what’s best for the American economy” or that buying a U.S. built Nissan is “great for America”…please point those phrases out to me in the statement you cited?


Are you going to discuss all Asian automakers and all vehicles on all continents compared to GM or are you going to talk about the Titan and the Tahoe? There is a difference between discussing ALL and discussing two specific vehicles (and why you would choose a pick-up and an SUV rather then two SUVs or two pick-ups is odd).

The Titan was designed IN THE U.S. for and only for the U.S. market; if you are so sure it wasn’t then prove it. So yes, buying a Titan is as beneficial to the U.S. economy as buying a Tahoe. In fact, Nissan had to build a whole new plant in the U.S. just be able to build the Titan...tell the people in Mississippi that it wasn't beneficial.

Where EXACTLY did I say that…reference the exact quote.


If you had any real affection for the Camaro you would know just how repulsive the above statement is. There are some people who don’t really care what they drive but no REAL Camaro aficionado will disgrace himself to the point of buying a Mustang…if you don’t understand that then you are simply out of touch with what it means to love the Camaro and Firebird.

Once again, you quote me as saying something I never said…where exactly did I say that I was “needing” a 350Z…come on, where is the exact quote???

Of course I didn’t NEED a 350Z; people don’t NEED anything beyond basic transportation…tell me how many people NEED a Z06 or a Z/28 or a GT500?

I wanted a performance sports car and I was ready to buy one…autocrossing a pick-up is not as much fun as doing so with a sports car (and not even allowed by SCCA when it’s a 4WD) but I didn’t need it…my point, which you choose to ignore is that when I was ready to buy another sports car there were no U.S. built counterparts I could have chosen.


Yes…let’s ignore the dozen or so U.S. built vehicles I’ve owned and concentrate only on the two imports (the Audi GT and the 350Z) and decide that my “preference” is for “imported cars”…didn’t they teach you in school that if you are trying to discern a pattern (what some might call a preference) you would look for the bigger number?

Maybe things are different down there but in America, when almost 90% of what a person has bought has been U.S. built vehicles, that would tend to indicate a preference for U.S. built vehicles; not imported ones…but who am I to quibble…if you want to make a pattern out of two imported vehicles over a lifetime, feel free.


I’m glad you are done but you aren’t making sense(and you've shown yourself to be a stranger to some importnat facts).

Tell me, precisely, how many Japanese jobs were “lost” because the Asian automakers (Nissan included) are building cars in other places, including the U.S.? Do you know first hand of ANY jobs that have been lost because of those decisions to build in the U.S.? Is the Japanese auto industry suffering and getting rid of people in Japan? We already know you have a problem with numbers; do you also believe that this is a zero-sum game where a manufacturer can’t build a new plant in the U.S. unless it closes one in Japan? If you’ve got evidence of that I’d love to see it.

As far as GM and the Camaro...GM is closing plants in the U.S. and getting rid of thousands of workers yet in the middle of all that, they decide to build what most people here (including me) would call an American icon in Canada...so yes, I think under those circumstances GM deserves some criticism for that decision. It woudl be easier to understand/support were GM out of capacity in the U.S. and truly needed to build the car somewhere else but that isn't the case.

Does anybody else want to tell him about Van Nuys and Norwood?

JasonD

I would like to make it clear that bickering and arguing will absolutely not be tolerated like this here in this forum. When it comes down to people just arguing like children back and forth, it is time to take it privately off this site. This is not the site for that, take it somewhere else.

If people cannot discuss things respectfully here, warnings will be given and then if necessary, people will be asked to leave.

Robert_Nashville - I want to make sure you saw this:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=58
This statement was made only a month ago. From this point on, you are going to have to adjust your posting habits here or you will need to find another site that it more suited to you.

Robert_Nashville

Sorry, Jason.

Yes, I saw the post you referenced.

In my defense bear in mind that I didn't start this thread and for the most part, I've only responded to what others have said here. Nevertheless, if you believe what I've said is out of line then it's out of line and I probably should find another site to spend time on.

Before I go, let me say one more time that I’m glad the car will be back and I look forward to seeing them on the highway and the autocross tracks soon. Let me also say thanks for what you and the rest of CamaroZ28.com have done to support the Camaro/Firebird…I appreciate it even if other’s might think otherwise.