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What he said!!!

Yeah, dang right it didn't when it did, but it should have when it didn't, but it could if it will, but it won't because it did...

 

HONESTLY? Because I care, and I can't stop how I feel.

I don't expect to "change" anyone on this board - the internet is not a good medium to influence people's way of life - but if I can just get SOMEONE, ANYONE, to even decide that buying things is more than a casual act and that there are ramifications to their actions beyond the cash register and the exit door - then I will not have labored in vain.
If anyone actually starts to make a change in the way they consume based on these discussions - that's just icing on the cake to me.

I tire of rehashing the same old issues again and again, but so does a teacher teaching 3rd graders the multiplication table. Labor of love?!?!

 

While we're on the topic of combat, are we counting that whole "civil war" thingy where we launched lots of concerted attacks on ourselves? Highest death toll of any of our wars yet, and we did it to ourselves. Might be a suitable comparison for our current automotive situation...



We didn't earn a reputation for making crummy cars by making reliable ones for decades, after all.

Speaking of the British, what's left of their auto industry is completely owned by foreigners, if I'm not mistaken...

I imagine there are some people who are a little sore over that, but I don't see many headlines of families starving in the streets as a result...

It's not any sort of national catastrophe, just a very unfortunate side effect of the free market economy.


Now, with that said, I'll be buying domestics, personally. Call me unconventional, but I have a thing for Camaros...

 

I believe he was referring to the War of 1812, not the Revolution.

 

I got a good taste of unAmerican pie perspective new years eve night. I escaped from home to spend the new years night with my sister and her family in an upscale city of Franklin, TN. Franklin is a mostly white city of young families that have one of the highest household income averages of the nation I believe.

2 couples come over with their young children (all 3 couples have 2 kids except for 1).

One of the guys stirrs a conversation about trading in his old car for something new and dependable. They go over about everything non-truck, suv, or larger car that Honda and Toyota have to offer.

As the conversation ends the guy slumps down a little and says its just time to get rid of this car he has because its a 95 model with over 150,000 miles and "Worse of all... its A CHEVY!!" The other 2 guys duck their heads down and groan in sympathy.

The situation kinda hit home with me a little bit. Not once was anything other than a Honda/ Toyota considered. The context of the convo was a smaller car that would get good gas mileage and would be dependable, and not American aparently.

GM sure has a hole to get out of with this group of wealthy new car buyers and it wont be easy.



edit: Later on I had a conversation with these guys about how bad its getting with the manufactoring jobs leaving the already poor parts of middle TN and northeast Miss. lol....

 

OUTSIDE nation invading our shores is different than infighting. double - plus a

No we didn't. We made the best cars in the world for 50 years, then beancounters decided the best way to run a car company was to design a disposable car that would last 30 days past the financing period, forcing people to buy a new car every 4 years. It worked in other industries and it forced sales, so what could go wrong?
Study "planned obsolescence" and get back with me on that one.

Meanwhile, foreign producers stuck with what worked - QUALITY. Who did they learn it from? US. We moved on to "the next big thing" (that ended up being a disaster) while they stayed back and watched. Then they came in and kicked our butts with what we developed and gave them in the 1940's, 50's and 60's via Demming and other manufacturing gurus during the war rebuild effort.

Trust me, no engineer would have ever thought-up or participated in making a passenger vehicle as cheaply and non-lasting as possible. The legacy from this failed attempt at market manipulation lives on today as noted in the next post up... sadly.

Just spent 4 weeks in England. Machester, Bolton, Wigan, and various small cities between. Wanna know how great it is there?
How about 10-15% unemployment.
How about the highest tax rates in a free country.
How about an $8 Big-Mac Meal Deal.
How about $8.50 for a cold-cut-combo meal deal at Subway.
How about averaging $4.50 for a pint of draft beer.
How about $6.50/gal gas.
How about $224/night for a basic hotel room.
How about 17.5% tax rate on the hotel room.
How about $6 for the first 30-minutes (pro-rata after) of internet access in that expensive room.
How about $450,000 for an 1100 ft^2 unfurnished apartment out in the boonies.
How about a $750,000 1900 ft^2 house that's 50 years old, out in the boonies.
How about a $600,000 1200ft^2 unfurnished 20y/o apartment in downtown Bolton.
How about $25k compact cars like the Focus, Peugoet 307, Vauxhall Corsa, etc.
How about $50k for a BMW Z4.
How about one of the highest rates of depression and alcoholism.
How about the highest rate of teen violence.
How about living in "the most video-taped, cc monitored" country in the world.
How about clothes and electronics that are almost double what we pay here.
How about groceries that are almost double what we pay here.
and...
How about living that way on the same salary you have here in the USA?

If you want to force me, I'll be happy to scan my receipts, copy some clips from the newspapers I brought back, and post them on this board to PROVE TO YOU that these prices are true. Or you can do a little searching on your own if you care to - look up the Bolton Evening News or Manchester Observer if you want some good reading. Note the British Pound is trading at about .51 US Dollars right now (so there's USD$2 for every GB£1) if you see some sale ads in the papers.

Fact is - I was quite depressed to see how the average Brit lives their daily life, and I was extremely happy to get home. It is not purgatory, but it is certainly NOT what we are accustomed to here in mainstream USA by a long shot.

As a side note - I found people there to be very envious of us Americans - in a nice way. I did not find them "snooty" towards me in the least - actually quite the opposite, they were very eager to converse about how I live back home. They appreciate our vastness and roominess, our "detached houses" as they put it. Our ability to recreate in many ways, like skiing, fishing, hunting, racing, and the like. Having a weekend track-car is something only the wealthy can do there these days. The people were great, but they live in a very "neutered" way compared to what we do.

Well there we go. I don't care how you get there, just get to the right place - which it seems that you may have done!

 

I don't really get where you're headed with all of that. You're saying that their high cost of living is due to a failing economy due to offshore exporting of jobs? I'm sure some of it does, but there are a lot of other factors to consider when considering inflation and cost of living than just GDP and related factors. I mean you know if we started moving the cheap jobs back here to the US it'd be all about the labor unions and increasing minimum wage and you know what that does? Raises the cost of living, which in turn decreases the power of the dollar in the global economy.
I mean that's certainly not the whole story, but neither is your perspective on it. I'm simply saying there are pros and cons everywhere here. Nothing is cut and dry as you're making it sound which is why our government isn't making any such drastic move.

Besides that... not all of that really converts over as drastically as it sounds when you put it in USD. The average household income over there is about 30% higher than it is here in the US when you compare USD to the Pound. So some things may cost more in USD, but the average person also makes more, too.

Oh, and the high housing costs and to an extent the higher cost of other business-related purchases such as the $$ it costs for McDonalds to have a location or for the hotel you're staying at to pay for their location, is due to a drastically higher cost of land there - and no that's not got much to do with the economy, it has to do with the fact that their population density is 12-13 times what ours is. Land is at a premium there. In fact there is only one state in the entire United States with a higher population density than England - New Jersey, and even it is only about 10% more dense.

Wanna guess what is also high in New Jersey? The Average cost of living is the highest in the nation, and so is the average household income - the highest in the nation. Also interestingly the state crime average is high, property tax is the highest in the nation, so are insurance rates for both home and auto, traffic is horrible... does this sound familiar?

 

I sort of lost track, are you saying the new Camaro will be built in the USA?

 

Proud,

I give you credit for continuing to fight the fight...I gave up on here, and many times with people I meet, a long time ago. All it did was cause a spike in my blood pressure and countless arguments. For me personally? I bought Dockers socks the other day over another brand because, amazingly, they're made in America. I only buy New Balance running shoes because they are the ONLY ones I can find made in America.

But hey, I'm one of the few left...I too can relate to hearing people talk about cars, listening to GM models be the butt of jokes, despite the fact that if you hear their owners list of problems with said "pile of crap," they often have amazingly few issues with them...

 

I disagree.
All the posts in this thread show the detriment when Americans buy foreign.

Proud Pony and Jason E make great points and I for one am greatful for their posts.

 

Gotta love the 'you just don't get it' attitude that so many around here swing around -

Look... continue to discuss the topic at hand, if you'd like. State or elaborate on why you agree/disagree. Bring up points or counterpoints, or just say you digress from the conversation as every point you have to offer has been made and you don't have time to or don't know how to provide counterpoints to those recently made.

But quit it with the 'I'm banging my head against the wall here because you are an idiot' attitude unless what you're saying is 100% factually sound. But it's not - what we're discussing here is a matter of opinion and vision of the future. There is no right or wrong - if there is I suggest you let our government know the infallible solution that you have determined. But so far every solution I've seen offered (at least the few I've seen so far) is either grandly impossible, and/or would have serious negative repercussions involved.

That's just my .02 - I'm not discrediting any of your opinions as stupid, I'm not banging my head against the wall saying you guys will never be able to understand the genius of my opinion - I'm just saying here's what I think. Why don't some of you try the same?

 

You can try and poop on my civil war metaphor if you want, I still say it makes my point.

Blame the beancounters or management, if you want to get specific, but the result remains the same.

As for the UK, I have no reason to doubt your figures, but I question how much of their situation is a result of their lack of domestic car manufacturers... and no, I don't care enough to research any of that...

I have no intention of arguing with a point of view I largely agree with.

 

good point.


I'm sure the hardcore domestic folks in this thread would allow that buying a GM helps the US economy more than buying a honda or toyota, even if the particular model hails from Canada...

 

Lots of aggresssion here. Funniest thing is that most Japanese would never consider an American car. Not because Japanese cars are better...but because thier auto industry is important to national success and pride.

 

Its not the import companies' fault if their products are perceived to be better than the domestics. Even if its just perception, there must be a reason for this. This rep wasnt just gained overnight, it took years of consistent good quality products. They earned where they are now. Same holds true for the domestic car manufacturers. They're reaping what theyve sown with years of neglect on quality. I wouldnt buy a disposable car that would last me only a couple of years just because its US made...thats crazy. If I buy something w/ my hard earned money, I want the best I could get.

Btw, the camaro will be made in Canada. So I guess those proponents of American made wont be buying Camaros too....