Corvette VS New Camaro
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by PacerX
We have a WINNER!
Call it whatever you want, but the most expensive car will be the fastest car with the highest option content, and that's that.
Now, the car with the recent history of selling at the higher price point has "SS" badges on the fenders. SS buyers will PAY for hood scoops and leather and bigger wheels and tires and different differentials and Bilsteins.
Z28 buyers, at least in the last generation WOULD NOT.
Call it whatever you want, but the most expensive car will be the fastest car with the highest option content, and that's that.
Now, the car with the recent history of selling at the higher price point has "SS" badges on the fenders. SS buyers will PAY for hood scoops and leather and bigger wheels and tires and different differentials and Bilsteins.
Z28 buyers, at least in the last generation WOULD NOT.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by PacerX
We have a WINNER!
Call it whatever you want, but the most expensive car will be the fastest car with the highest option content, and that's that.
Now, the car with the recent history of selling at the higher price point has "SS" badges on the fenders. SS buyers will PAY for hood scoops and leather and bigger wheels and tires and different differentials and Bilsteins.
Z28 buyers, at least in the last generation WOULD NOT.
Call it whatever you want, but the most expensive car will be the fastest car with the highest option content, and that's that.
Now, the car with the recent history of selling at the higher price point has "SS" badges on the fenders. SS buyers will PAY for hood scoops and leather and bigger wheels and tires and different differentials and Bilsteins.
Z28 buyers, at least in the last generation WOULD NOT.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
I would buy the top dog z28, even if it didn't come with many options, as long as it comes with the nice road race suspension, big brakes, awesome motor and good trans. I probably will be in a position to do so in a few years, when it finally comes out. There are examples of the top dog not having many options, and still costing the most. I can think of a very recent one. The track version of the 350z. As far as I know, it costs the most (barring the convertable trim levels), and doesn't come with many options at all. They still manage to sell, and although it is at less volume, I am sure a top dog z28 would not be an extremely high volume vehicle either.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 17
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by RussStang
I would buy the top dog z28, even if it didn't come with many options, as long as it comes with the nice road race suspension, big brakes, awesome motor and good trans. I probably will be in a position to do so in a few years, when it finally comes out. There are examples of the top dog not having many options, and still costing the most. I can think of a very recent one. The track version of the 350z. As far as I know, it costs the most (barring the convertable trim levels), and doesn't come with many options at all. They still manage to sell, and although it is at less volume, I am sure a top dog z28 would not be an extremely high volume vehicle either.
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Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
The C5 Z06 was a great success yes, but there is A LOT of moaning that the Z06 is not available in anything other than a fixed-roof configuration. Dave Hill has stood his ground for better or worse on that one.
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Posts: 2,574
From: Arlington, Texas
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by steves
The Z06 is about having maximum performance. We all know the fixed roof was the lightest and weight doesn't help performance. Z06 AND Z/28 ARE THE SAME FORMULA THE HIGHEST PERFORMING MODELS!!!! Z06 AND Z/28 ARE NOT MENT FOR EVERYONE!!!
Edit: before anyone tries to explain why this is so on the Z06, I'll beat you to it, the Corvette team knows the hardtop is the best for structural rigidity, even if some customers want targa or vert versions. They know an automatic isn't in line w/ the cars mission. They know they only want colors that exude a racing persona. And they know the suspension is set up the way they want it to be to get maximum handling out of the car, and the other suspensions would compromise, or outright not be able to take the punishment the car is capable of dishing out. They do ALL this in the name of getting maximum performance out of the design. There are options that are flat out not available, and in their place, are purpose built pieces of hardware that are designed solely for the purpose of maxium performance.
Last edited by CLEAN; Jun 27, 2005 at 11:29 PM.
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Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by CLEAN
Don't bother. The fact that Z06 comes in hardtop only, can't be had w/ an automatic, has limited color choices inside and out, and can't be had with the adjustable or magnetic suspension options doesn't seem to matter to those who say the fastest cars will be loaded out.
I totally understand what you are saying. But Z06 and Z/28 are about ***** out performance not creature comforts. They are not ment for the faint of heart. There are regular Corvettes and SS Camaros for them.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by CLEAN
Don't bother. The fact that Z06 comes in hardtop only, can't be had w/ an automatic, has limited color choices inside and out, and can't be had with the adjustable or magnetic suspension options doesn't seem to matter to those who say the fastest cars will be loaded out.
Edit: before anyone tries to explain why this is so on the Z06, I'll beat you to it, the Corvette team knows the hardtop is the best for structural rigidity, even if some customers want targa or vert versions. They know an automatic isn't in line w/ the cars mission. They know they only want colors that exude a racing persona. And they know the suspension is set up the way they want it to be to get maximum handling out of the car, and the other suspensions would compromise, or outright not be able to take the punishment the car is capable of dishing out. They do ALL this in the name of getting maximum performance out of the design. There are options that are flat out not available, and in their place, are purpose built pieces of hardware that are designed solely for the purpose of maxium performance.
Edit: before anyone tries to explain why this is so on the Z06, I'll beat you to it, the Corvette team knows the hardtop is the best for structural rigidity, even if some customers want targa or vert versions. They know an automatic isn't in line w/ the cars mission. They know they only want colors that exude a racing persona. And they know the suspension is set up the way they want it to be to get maximum handling out of the car, and the other suspensions would compromise, or outright not be able to take the punishment the car is capable of dishing out. They do ALL this in the name of getting maximum performance out of the design. There are options that are flat out not available, and in their place, are purpose built pieces of hardware that are designed solely for the purpose of maxium performance.
You know, some people don't get. Yeah, I'm not kidding.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,574
From: Arlington, Texas
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
Because it has been proven time and time again that top-gun models don't sell with options stripped off of them.
The C5 Z06 was a great success yes
The C5 Z06 was a great success yes
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,574
From: Arlington, Texas
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by steves
I totally understand what you are saying. But Z06 and Z/28 are about ***** out performance not creature comforts. They are not ment for the faint of heart. There are regular Corvettes and SS Camaros for them.
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Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Hmmmm good question, I guess it depends. Beyond the argument that $40K really starts bending Camaro's price formula.....if what that $40k bought me, was a loaded 3,900 lbs luxo-cruiser.....then no (more like hell no). That's not what I'm looking for. Besides, I hate chrome wheels...they're for pansies. If that $40K buys me some light weight forged wheels, Brembo brakes, lots of aluminum and titanium bits, world class chassis, fire-breathing motor and sweet shifting gearbox...I could be seduced.
But $40K is just an arbitrary number anyway. For one, how much more does a 5.4 mod motor, with forged internals, 4v heads, blower and intercooler cost than a 450 hp LSx smallblock? 2 grand more? 3 grand more? More grand more? That's just the motor. Stock for stock...a GT500 beating (in total performance) Camaro, could be sold profitably for FAR less than $40K, IMO.
But getting back to the luxo-cruiser, I know lots of guys who would think a loaded Camaro......yes, even with those ghastly chrome wheels....is the epitome of Camaro-ness. I also know just as many guys who are looking for EXACTLY the formula I'm jonesin' for.
The smart product planner would want to appeal to both groups....don't you think?
But $40K is just an arbitrary number anyway. For one, how much more does a 5.4 mod motor, with forged internals, 4v heads, blower and intercooler cost than a 450 hp LSx smallblock? 2 grand more? 3 grand more? More grand more? That's just the motor. Stock for stock...a GT500 beating (in total performance) Camaro, could be sold profitably for FAR less than $40K, IMO.
But getting back to the luxo-cruiser, I know lots of guys who would think a loaded Camaro......yes, even with those ghastly chrome wheels....is the epitome of Camaro-ness. I also know just as many guys who are looking for EXACTLY the formula I'm jonesin' for.
The smart product planner would want to appeal to both groups....don't you think?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
[QUOTE=Z284ever] If that $40K buys me some light weight forged wheels, Brembo brakes, lots of aluminum and titanium bits, world class chassis, fire-breathing motor and sweet shifting gearbox..
[QUOTE]
I know it's not the same but a GXP Grand Prix has some of that stuff and I told you what we paid for ours.
[QUOTE]
I know it's not the same but a GXP Grand Prix has some of that stuff and I told you what we paid for ours.
Last edited by steves; Jun 28, 2005 at 12:09 AM.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by CLEAN
Ok, explain that. Z06 was highly stripped by Corvette standards at first, though some things made it in by the 2004MY. You say stripped cars don't sell, but then say Z06 was a success??
Also, I've always been a bit suspicious about the motivation of making the Z06 hardtop-only. By 2000, sales of the FRC version of the C5 were in the tank. Bringing the Z06 package into the fold for those FRC models only was a convenient way to move them, under the premise that it's "more structurally sound" and "purpose built".
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Hmmmm good question, I guess it depends. Beyond the argument that $40K really starts bending Camaro's price formula.....if what that $40k bought me, was a loaded 3,900 lbs luxo-cruiser.....then no (more like hell no). That's not what I'm looking for. Besides, I hate chrome wheels...they're for pansies. If that $40K buys me some light weight forged wheels, Brembo brakes, lots of aluminum and titanium bits, world class chassis, fire-breathing motor and sweet shifting gearbox...I could be seduced.
But $40K is just an arbitrary number anyway. For one, how much more does a 5.4 mod motor, with forged internals, 4v heads, blower and intercooler cost than a 450 hp LSx smallblock? 2 grand more? 3 grand more? More grand more? That's just the motor. Stock for stock...a GT500 beating (in total performance) Camaro, could be sold profitably for FAR less than $40K, IMO.
But getting back to the luxo-cruiser, I know lots of guys who would think a loaded Camaro......yes, even with those ghastly chrome wheels....is the epitome of Camaro-ness. I also know just as many guys who are looking for EXACTLY the formula I'm jonesin' for.
The smart product planner would want to appeal to both groups....don't you think?
But $40K is just an arbitrary number anyway. For one, how much more does a 5.4 mod motor, with forged internals, 4v heads, blower and intercooler cost than a 450 hp LSx smallblock? 2 grand more? 3 grand more? More grand more? That's just the motor. Stock for stock...a GT500 beating (in total performance) Camaro, could be sold profitably for FAR less than $40K, IMO.
But getting back to the luxo-cruiser, I know lots of guys who would think a loaded Camaro......yes, even with those ghastly chrome wheels....is the epitome of Camaro-ness. I also know just as many guys who are looking for EXACTLY the formula I'm jonesin' for.
The smart product planner would want to appeal to both groups....don't you think?
I don't think there was an answer in there.
A smart product planner would not upset the core of his buyers who are willing to pay the most for his car, and therefore allow him to gather the most profit.
And a stripped car isn't going to make those folks happy.
Furthermore, the suspension in the 4th gen SS's and WS6's was considerably stiffer than the lower end cars. It was not a cushy luxo-cruiser. It certainly did have a lot of option content in most cases, and the price crept up into the mid-30's.
Which is why a top-end SS with all the goodies will end up in mid/high 30's with extreme examples touching $40,000 - given inflation as a fact of life.
Now, that being the case, it will be the mission of the top-end car to compete with any and all comers at it's price point - and the GT500 is squarely in that territory if the $39,000 list price is to be believed.
And the final nail in the coffin? There is no history of people forking out that kind of money on Z28's. There is the history of people doing it for SS's... and a smart product planner is going to take note of that.
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Posts: 2,979
Re: Corvette VS New Camaro
Originally Posted by Z284ever
How exactly can you make that hypothesis? Were bigger wheels, tires, hood scoops, different diffs and Bilsteins EVEN OFFERED ON A Z/28?!?!?!?!!?!?
Simple, because the vast majority of Z28 buyers WOULDN'T HAVE PAID FOR THEM... because if they would have, they could. All they had to do was pick up an SS, and if the issue of the badge on the fender meant that much to them, THEY COULD HAVE CHANGED THEM.
But they didn't.
Matter of fact, I've seen more than one Z28 (even a few V6's) with SS badging, but amazingly I've never seen on badged the other way around.