I read through this whole post, and things go back and forth so much, I'm confused on one point. Who here thinks that the Z28 will not get the LS2(or comparable at the time)? I think it will, and I don't see why it shouldn't.

Look at the new Mustang. It's a HUGE hit. Did they change the base/GT/Cobra scheme? Not at all, except calling the Cobra a GT500.

Why not keep the base Camaro, Z28, and SS. Base Camaro = V6, Z28 = LS2, SS = ?(something comparable to a GT500)

Dan

 

I simply wouldn't want a top dog Camaro to be an SS anymore, because everything in the Chevy lineup has an SS moniker. The Camaro is supposed to be a more specialty vehicle than say, an Impala. The z28 badge is known to be only associated to the Camaro, just as z06 is only for the Corvette, so why not make the top dog have a handling code specific to the car. I realize it has been done with SS on the top for quite some time, but it doesn't mean it cannot be changed, and the fact is that most people probably wouldn't even notice, because most people don't even seem to realize that Camaros were actually still being made up until 2002.

I think it is a good idea to make z28 the top dog. There will be no mistaking it for a Camaro. Plus, the was z284ever makes it sounds, it is already a sealed deal, so there is not much we can do about it anyways.

 

Well at least you recognize the BASE C6 must have more.

Now to the problems.
The handbuilt 7L LS7 makes a little over 500hp. An LS2 is NOT going to make anywhere near 450-475hp in an emissions friendly form.

The LS2 probably has another 30 or so hp in it and still be production emissions compliant. The LS2 has at least 5-6 years of mainstream production remaining.

So ... Bottom line, I don't figure there'll even be a Camaro out before 2010, and even if it was, there's nothing more than a 400hp LS2 to put in it.

 

The insiders seem to be hinting at a rather short lifespan for the LS2. Considering how undercammed the LS2 is for its displacement, getting an extra 25-30 HP out of it with no emissions penalties should be child's play. Perhaps the "next" LS2 will be a bigger cammed version of the one we have now.

 

Oh they'll get their 30 or so horses out of the LS2 for the obligatory Vette bumps over the next 5 years.

The "next" LS2 could be based on the 6.4 LS7 that couldn't make the magic 500hp mark for the Z06. But, the 6.0 LS2 just got here, and to me it looks like it's going to be around for a while. And it ain't going much past 400.

 

I wonder if GM is already planning on a new family of engines. They already seem to have the know how to produce another cheap, diverse pushrod engine, or so it seemed, when a few years back they unveiled that XV8 engine concept.
I always wondered if they might do anything with that, considering there was nothing really exotic about it.

It would seem counterproductive though, to just finish up on the ls2 and start moving on so early.

 

The LS2 may be around for awhile, but it may not necessarily always be the top performing volume smallblock .

 

Look, we're comparing apples to oranges here.

If you guys really want to stick to the literal heritage of Z28 vs. SS then the Z28 will be a purpose built road racer with a high revving small displacement LSX motor and the SS will be the optioned out nose heavy drag racing rocket with big power and no handling.

Do you really want that?

Which model was on top for longer, or which model was on top most recently, or in the beginning, is sort of irrelevant.

What matters here are the following:

1. Z28, originally, was a low-volume option package.

2. Chevy has a 'new' marketing strategy with Z and SS options. Every model they sell has an SS package, and most offer little added performance but mostly just looks and the impression of speed. I don't personally care for the top Camao model to be a part of the new *****-it-out "SS" strategy.

3. Chevy also has a new thing going with the Z option. The Z06.... Remember in the 90s when we had a Z28, Z26, Z24, Z34, etc. etc. etc? It was just like the SS is today. Well now there is basically one Z, the Z06, and it is bad as hell. TODAY's buyers will associate a similarly themed Z28 with the mission of the Z06, but at a more modest price point.

All the stars in the Chevy universe are aligned to make the SS the top volume Camaro, perhaps with 2 V8 choices, one being ~350hp and the other ~400hp, but the car will be more of a GT theme. Then Z06 would maybe get the same ~400 motor, maybe a little more motor, but more brakes, some unique wheels and bodywork, harsher suspension, and some modest weight reduction, etc.

If ya'll want to split hairs about Camaro history we can draw this thread out to 1000 replies and not agree on anything. What really matters here is what the market is NOW and what the Chevy strategies are NOW. It makes no sense to return Camaro to a model hierarchy from 35 years ago when all the other cars are on the current model hierarchy. By making the application of SS and Z packages consistent across all model lines, you help build brand identity, which is something Chevy needs right now.

 

Apart from the fact that the SS's out accelerated, handled, braked and out-powered the last generation Z28... and had higher content.

I disagree. Marketers pay attention to where the money came from and who bought what. In the last generation (which would be the most important) the higher content SS cars proved that folks with the money will pay for all of those add-ons. That being the case, it would take a fool to try to change that for whatever reason. It works.


Seems to me that the V8 SS Impala and MC are significantly faster than the lower-line cars.

I think it makes sense. Go where the money is.

Yeah, I remember. It was whored out in a HUGE way on cars that had no business being called performance cars, even at the time.


No. They'll associate it with the last thing they knew - which was a budget V8 car that was less expensive and could be had with serious performance shortcomings relative to the more highly optioned SS cars - Tires? Top speed limiters? Softer suspensions? Anybody remember those? I do...

Then those stars are 180 degrees out of whack. The recent history points to buyers paying more for a more highly optioned and better performing SS. The Z28 was the cheap car with the big motor, and the market proved what they wanted with the most important thing they had available to them - their hard-earned cash.

This is the SECOND generation where it happened in a row. Z28's were the budget performance cars in the 3rd gen, with the IROC's taking the top spot until the last couple of years where sales fell off drastically and the IROC name was no longer used.

 

The IROC existed for 6 of 11 years. For 82-84 and 91-92 the Z28 was the "top dog".

From 85-87 the IROC was just an option package on the Z28, and for 88-90 the Z28 didn't even exist. So I'm not sure that's the best example out there either.

The SS existed in 4th gen land from 96-2002. From 93-95 the Z28 was the top dog.

If you are going to follow both of those examples literally then we'll have to "make due" with a ho hum Z28 for 4 years before you get your SS model.

 

Chris, I think you've got it!

The SS sub-brand, the SS strategy, is predicated on volume. It's about achievable performance. The last thing Chevy wants to do is, limit SS to very low volume, very high cost vehicles, (no I don't mean like Silverado SS...although it fit those criteria ). There is absolutely no point to that and is not part of the strategy. Period.

Getting back to Camaro, I believe we will see various very well developed models. We have to, if Camaro is to be successful. And Chevy has learned this lesson - the hard way - from the 4th gen.
Here's what we won't see though - A barren V6 car that you couldn't even give away. An equally barren V8 car, which although cheap...wasn't cheap enough to capture buyer's attention in large numbers. A slightly glitzier version of the cheap/barren V8 car, which compelled 5,000-10,000 buyers annually, to cough up a $3,000 premium in order to avoid the the mundane looks of the first two.

 

I agree with PacerX. Also, the third gen has absolutely zero relevance to an SS vs Z28 discussion because there was no SS to be below or above the Z28.

 

Substitute IROC for SS, and you have a very valid comparison

 

Pacer, you make very valid points but I think you underestimate the impact the Z28 badge still has with people. Who's to say the rolls couldn't be successfully reversed? I understand what you're saying about the marketing aspect of the 4th Gen....people (ahem, me ) were willing to pay the premium for the SS because we knew it was the best Camaro...but the Z28 nameplate still has so much equity in it, I believe Z28 could shine in the "SS" role next time around. Honestly, I don't care which one is which, but you have to admit that when you tell people you have a "Z28", you usually don't have to mention it's a Camaro. They're synonymous.

 

This thread is great. everyone has their own ideas, and thought a lot sound bad to me, still makes me think.

I'm confused by Z284ever though. He claims to disagree with me, yet his latest reply is what i'm talking about. SS should be about volume. And it doesnt even mean exclusive engine. Just like the Cobalt SS is not NA and SC, why couldn't there be an SS350 SS396 scheme for camaro. And then Z28 is the low volume, 1LE type car. I guess where i diverge is i think SS396 makes sense whereas i guess others think the top engine should be Z28 only.

Other than that, i guess since the LSx engines don't have the kind of weight penalty a big block would have had for a Z28, i guess if there's a real need to have Z28 have the top engine to go with suspension, whatever. Thing is, and has been touched on through this thread. Including the top engine and everything else will almost naturally drive a lot more content into the car, distracting it from it's mission as a purpose built car (unless i'm missing something here)

I still think the top engine shoudl be offered in the SS too though. Not everyone wants a kidney beating road racer, yet might want ludicrous speed style cruiser.