All painfully true. I really wish it wasn't, because I'm a fan of bang for the buck. At $23,000 before discounts the 2002 Camaro Z28 was the best performance bargin in the history of performance. It would be like getting a 60s era muscle car for a price not much higher than a well optioned Pinto.

What happened? Everyone loaded up their Camaros with options. I remember asking one member why he paid $28K for a loaded V6 when he could have gotten a Z28 for cheaper. He wanted more items on his car than a base Z28 had, and besides the RS looked better. Also, SS Camaros held steady when the rest of the line tanked.

Much to my chargrin, it all but kills any notion of a cheap performance model in the future.

Actually, a magazine (I forgot which one) did a comparison of the SS and the same year Z28, and the difference was virturally nil.

Unfortunately true.

 

You're right. This is a new thing. But then again prior to 1982 a world class handling Camaro with no HP was kind of a new thing too. See, there's this thing called "change" you may have heard of it. Formulations and ideas about what a car is change over time, things like "what is a camaro?" and what the definition of top performing model is. I'm suggesting a NEW paradigm to mirror the Corvette's model hierarchy, a new idea for a New camaro.

If the 4th gen model structure worked so well then why can't I go out and buy one right now?

I'd hardly say the SS was the top performer in the 4th gen. In corners, yes. In a straight line? Depends on the build. Since all the HP difference was just on paper and stickers, there was little if any significant difference in dragstrip performance between the two.

I disagree entirely. The last generation died of its own lack of momentum. Change is good, change is needed.

If the 4th gen paradigm is so great then why don't we just rebuild St. Therese and fire the line back up. If no change is needed in the model structure and the offerings then why change the car at all? 3rd gens sold well,why don't we fire up Van Nuys again and start pumping out IROCs?

I can take your faulty logic out as far as you dare me to.

 

Great, then we can reasonably agree that your idea is a brand new thing and mine has been proven, at least in the last generation.

Terrific. As long as that's the admission, I have no issues with it.

False cause.

I would humbly submit that the ONLY thing that kept the 4th gen holding on as long as it did was the availability of the SS. You could actually buy an SS, finding a stripped Z28 was nearly impossible and V6's were rarer than hen's teeth.

Why? Because THEY DID NOT SELL.


Well then you'd be wrong. Ask Cosby sometime what happens in his drag racing class if he gets 275's and everybody else gets 255's.


See the above note on tires. If Cosby gets 275's and everybody else gets 255's, everybody else loses. Well... everybody else loses anyway, aparrently, but then they'd lose worse.



You can call it any name you want. One name was proven, your idea is an experiment. I have data, you don't. Get some data and someday your hypothesis may be proven.

 

Hmmmm. I'm beginning to see your logic. I've done an extensive search of sales records. I've scoured them all. You know what I've found? Not one of those cheap frickin' bastards that bought a Camaro SS got an LS6. In fact ALL Chevy LS6 buyers opted to buy a Z06 Corvette. Using your logic...that proves to me, that Camaro SS buyers are not willing to spend for top performance, ( the LS6's non-availability in the Camaro SS is of course irrelevant to my point). I was almost ready to support the Z06 getting a name change to Corvette SS, but now that it has been proven that Camaro SS buyers won't spend money to get an LS6 which is not available in that car, anyway...I think it should stay Z06. {/sarcasm}


Would anyone care for some raSSberry Kool-Aid.

 

You're damned right they weren't. If they were we willing to spend for top performance they WOULD HAVE bought a Vette. But they didn't. So no Corvettes for them. So yes, even in the case of SS, there is an upper level of cost that limits sales... it just happens to be a fact that their upper limit has been higher than the Z28 buyers upper limit - WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT.


I'd take the Z28 flavor, but it's slower, doesn't handle as well, and the resale is worse.

 

That screaching sound is the sound of my fingernails digging into the floor while being dragged as I try hopelessly to stay out of this futile (I still believe that the decisions have already been made) arguement.

The Z/28 WAS the special edition in it's first 3 years of life....the SS only lasted some 5-6 years before dieing out for another 23-24 years....and then only lasted another 6 years....so the idea that making the Z/28 again a "special edition, performance model, ain't nothing new and the idea that it should again be some form of "Top Dog" (GOD I HATE that analogy) ... is born out by the ORIGINAL concept of Z/28 and for MOST of the Camaro's history.

What the SS has become...a over-used moniker for even moderate performing models (NA Cobalts)... has given an opportunity to revive the historic Z/28 model for the rebirth of the Camaro....and more specifically, as a factory built (again) "tuner car" (another analogy I hate BTW).....why wouldn't we want that?!?

I'm locking myself in my room as to stay away from the dust and horse hair now.....

 

The fact that they didn't get an LS6 in their Camaro PROVES that they are cheap, unemployed, genetically mutated losers, unable to appreciate performance.

Yes, it's so clear to me now! The Kool-Aid is delicious, BTW.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, the opposition has now devolved into screeching like little girls and verbally wetting their pants.

The prosecution rests.

 

You're exactly right, but Pacer X, once he has opened his mouth, has to win every argument, or else his ego is damaged. So he'll talk this thread into the grave if he has to to prove his point.

 

Holy cow. I just rested my position.

 

Yeah but only because you thought you had the last word...which by replying to my last post you STILL tried to get.

If I had replied again to your last post to me, you'd have been off and running again...

I don't think you can NOT have the last word, LOL. You are compelled to "win" I respect and appreciate that on some level but its also exhausting, especially when the point you think I'm trying to make is no where near the point I am actually making.

 

LOL. Make my mine a stripped Z28 with 275s, please.

 

Hmmm... this is an interesting problem. I cannot reply or I am attempting to have the last word.

How about this:

Chris, I like your car.

 

The thing is, all of this is OPINION, there is no right or wrong. Some people want to see SS on top, some want to see Z/28, others still wouldn't mind a shared role like the first few years of the cars existence. Thats just the way it is. My personal opinion is that Chevrolet decided to call the V8 Camaro Z28 when the 4th gen started. Fine. But once the SS came out, sure it was faster, handled better, costs more (good for GM), ect, so it is "top dog". Fine. But then comes 2001, Z06 pops up as a, in Corvette terms, "stripped" no nonsense top dog Corvette. And all of a sudden, people realize that there is an opportunity for Camaro to do the same thing. This exact same thing happened with Camaro 20 years ago, and the result was the Z/28 name being dropped altogether due to there basically being no need for it. Only difference was, back then, you could already get a car that was "stripped" and had some upgraded performance stuff built it, but it already had a name, 1LE. Fast forward to now. SS proved people would step up and pay more green for more content. Fine. Once again, I think MOST of us frankly don't see a role for the Z/28 name in the new car if it was going to be nothing more than a Camaro V8, since the SS proved to be a viable brand. But since the Z06, now a new role for the Z/28 moniker has become a POSSIBLILITY. A possibility that just so happens to fit the orignal RPOZ28 to perfection! How better to have a Z/28 than to bring it back to what it orignally was? A desireable car in its own right, which these days stands proud along the SS350's and SS396's as some of the most highly coveted Camaros of the time. All this talk about top model is kind of irrelevant. I think this whole discussion should boil down to finding a suitable role for the Z/28 name, since the SS has proven it can be a success in the top performance/price category. Otherwise, just leave Z/28 out of it and give the base car a V-8 option.

The more I think about it, the more I think that my Z/28 scenario has more to do with the Z51 option than the Z06, simply because we know, or are pretty sure that we won't get a stouter engine than the SS. But if you could order RPOZ28 and get drilled rotors, better gearing, better tires, stiffer suspension...why not? If you could get those things on an SS, I suppose you wouldn't need the option for RPOZ28, unless you wanted the hardware, without paying for all the stuff you didn't want like t-tops, leather, navi, ect.

Hypothetical....Lets say Camaro lived on in 2003 and beyond. Chevrolet pulls an IROC and drops the Z/28 name, but instead makes it an option. How about this lineup...base-V6, optional LS1. SS-LS1 only. RPOZ28, drilled rotors, gearing, bilstien suspension, bigger catback, 345hp package, 18's, basically all the SLP options you could get on the SS at the time (I know you couldn't get the drilled rotors, or gears, its just an example). And lets say you could get RPOZ28 on either the base-V8 car, or the SS. On the base car, you could call it Z28 if you wanted to, but if combined w/ the SS, the SS badges would take priority, just as they did when you ordered an SS/RS back in the day. There, now you have a Z28 that is indeed a step up on base V8 Camaros, and on an equal footing w/ SS's in terms of performance, but you wouldn't have to pay for the SS's hoodscoop, and spoiler IF YOU DIDN'T WANT THEM. I know personally would have LOVED to have had the SS's bilstein suspension on my car, but I wasn't going to spend 4 grand for the privlege of buying a $1000 suspension upgrade.

That's what it boils down to. Give the Z/28 name a viable reason to live, or don't have it at all, certainly don't have it as a plain jane Camaro with a V8 and a black roof.

 

to CLEAN... He GETS it.