I don't think Charlie or I are talking about swapping the roles. What I'm suggesting is leave the SS in the same role as it had in the 4th gen, but take the Z out of boring blaa 'base v8' duty and make it a Z06-style car.

Either offer a base V8 "camaro" with no special designation or call it RS. I personally think the masses out there not looking for a fire breather would like being able to purchase a well optioned "Camaro" with a modest V8 (4.8L?) w/o the taught suspension or all the hard core go-fast appeal.

YOu would have:

1. Camaro, available with multiple option package and either a sophisticated V6 or a modest V8 on the lower displacement end of the spectrum.
2. Camaro SS, the top "mass" model, with looks and power to match, all the options bells and whistles.
3. Z28, not a "stripper" but more of a purposeful racer with specific equipment, a showroom racer.

If we're blessed by GM enough maybe we'll get something to squeeze in there between 1 & 2, like an LT or RS, though then you begin to water down the model distinctions.

 

Bring back TBI!

 

The problem is, and getting to the heart of PacerX's point, is that the guy who spends the most money expects, and deserves, to have the quickest car. Period. Best handling, fastest at the drag strip....oh, and it has to have the most options. That's what "fully loaded" is. What happens if you start optioning out an SS and it piles up to be more cash than the "racer" Z28? People aren't going to go for that. A "purposeful racer" Z28 better also have all the content the lower-priced SS has available to it, and be quicker. So you might as well say the roles would indeed "be reversed."

AFAIK, the Z06 is available with everything the base Corvette offers, except the targa/convertible option. Lord knows that has stirred enough debate to last a while.

 

Is the Z06 a "stripper" ?

Note I said "not a 'stripper' "

Where did I ever suggest the Z28 wouldn't be the most expensive car? Clearly you'd pay a premium for all the racing goodies.

I don't want Z28 to be a no-options Corvette FRC type car.....

I'm not sure I understand what is so hard about this?

 

Big problem with the ZO6 (C6) analogy is it is such a special car. Yes it is available with fancy options with no place in a race car like heated seats and nav. But it also has an aluminum frame and carbon fiber fenders to save weight. So even with all the otions and heavier HD race parts it's lighter than a base vette.

If you give the Z28 all the bells and whistles, it'll be a frickin tank. No way GM is going to do anything special ala the ZO6 to make it lighter. I just don't see how you can make the Z28 be a high dollar model yet also be the fastest and best handling.

Quick question for those of you harping on the Z28 as the ultimate road racer. And i mean this honestly. How many of you actually road race your cars? Reason i ask is, I've read several times over the years in interviews with race drivers and well as engineers, quotes about how they'd rather lose weight than add HP anyday. I think one of the more famous quotes was either ferrari, or shelby when he was associated with them, something like he'd rather shave 100lbs than add 50 or 100hp. A drag racer would not make that trade, and thats what you all sound like.

And that's what this is all about to me. If you could sell 1LEs (original recipe no frills, big brakes style) as Z28s with a mid level engine you'd have a helluva formula for a dominating street racer. That's why i ask if you actually are hardcore road racers, because i just can't believe i'm listening to people who want heavy full option cars for the track just because it had a little hp from the factory. Especially when it comes to an LSx engine where 50hp is an afternoon away.


And i still think anyone is on crack who thinks a 302 was the end all be all of camaro engines. Big block not faster around a road course being the argument. Wasn't the BB chevy banned from nascar? And wasn't there a cubic inch limit on the trans am cars? I'm just not sure i understood the point at all.

 

I think camaro will have 3 engine choices

1) 240hp 3.9L
2) 355hp 5.3
3) 390hp Ls2

That would be a pretty nice lineup and the hp is distributed decently well.

I'd love to see a 450+hp detuned version of the Ls2 or S/c'd Ls4/Ls2, but that seems like a long stretch and i don't think GM would go through with that. Who knows though with Chrysler coming out with a 425hp 6.1L SRT-8 Challenger and Ford coming out with a 450+ hp GT500.

 

The problem is the schizophrenia in the "Z28 Gestapo" camp.

All this harping about keeping the price down comes, by and large, from that camp. At the same time, for some inexplicable reason, the idea has to be that a Z28 has to be the upper limit of performance.

Meanwhile, there is a history of people being willing to pay more for a high-performance Camaro than the Z28 provided. That's why the SS showed up in 1996 - it was a way to sell more content and more profit.

So, now what you have is a group of people unwilling to shell out the bucks for a car that'll put the GT500 on a trailer, and then concurrently want to demand that the rest of us can't buy that car because it wouldn't:

A) Be called a Z28.

-or-

B) Would be too expensive.

I got a better idea...

Let's have us a $40,000 "eats GT500's for lunch" SS, since many of us would be willing to pay for it, and the Z28 crowd - by and large - would NOT be willing to pay for it.




Which leads me to something else that bothers me...

How in hades does it make sense to use a 5.3 liter for anything in a Camaro???

The LS2 is the same size, the same weight, has comparable fuel economy, identical emissions, costs basically the same to produce, and makes more power.

So, a 5.3 liter makes sense how??? Give the 5.3 liter to the trucks and the fwd cars. Hell, it'll make Corvettes less expensive by increasing LS2 volume... if the LS2 is still around.

I'm still puzzled as to why anyone would think that an LS2 would be too powerful for a Camaro. The Corvette will be faster if the engines are identical, simply due to weight.

Now, if there's some capacity issue with the LS2, then I see the sense in having an alternative. If not, it's stupid.


Go big or go home, and if it intrudes on the Corvette's territory, the Vette needs more power.

The SRT-8 is at 425hp. The GT-500 will be around 450hp. A top-shelf Camaro deserves nothing less and neither does an entry-level Corvette.

 

Nobody is going to push us back into the Dark Ages of the Camaro.

On another note, I wish there was some way to contact GM. None of us here want them to detune the engine so they can appraise the high and mighty gods of the earth Corvette owners. We want it all.

 

Dan, you're beginning to crack me up, buddy. You keep saying that this Z/28 camp wants the top performing Camaro to also be the cheapest. When the members of this so called camp, say "no we don't", you say "yes you do"...and then continue on about the wisdom of the failed 4th gen line up. Schizoprhenia? Hard to have much of an exchange if no one is communicating...which apparently we are not.

This whole argument reminds me of a WW II Japanese soldier found on a Pacific island, circa 1967. The whole world knows the war is over...except him.

 

A 400hp/400lbft LS2 will require beefier driveline than a ~ 350hp 5.3. Beefier drivetrain = more money. Also = less desireable to everybody but the hardcore people who will race/use the car. Beefier drivetrains are less smooth, noisier and also cost gas mileage. There's also the insurance factor. insurance on a 400hp Z28 that any idiot can afford will continue the fbody's hallowed tradition of worse insurance than any other GM car.

OTOH, if you offer a 300-350hp car for the masses thats just a bit more docile, the hardcore people will still modify the hell out of them.

I think GM would have a much easier time selling camaro if they focus on more than just end all power and handling and concentrate on a car that people might actually want to drive in. Once again, 4th gen proved what an abysmal failure the engine in a box with a barely adequate drivetrain concept is.

 

Alrighty, simple question then:

Are you willing to shell out $40,000 to buy a Camaro that'll blow the GT-500 into the weeds, and then also willing to pay for the appearance and comfort content that would be required at that price point (leather, HUD, chrome wheels, power seats, booming stereo, etc...)?

 

Yes but they have sloped foreheads, an odd affection for the solid rear axle, and their knuckles drag on the ground. The corner carver crowd is far more sophisticated and enlightened.




Yes...IF I could separate out some of those options into what I want and don't want. I have no need for leather, HUD, or power seats. I am fully prepared for a ZO6-like Camaro to be priced near $40K. Car prices of the 80's and 90's are behind us.

 

You aren't going to have any choice.

The car is going to be loaded to the gills if it's ever built.

 

Why can't we just have this..

V6-base

5.3 V8- optional in base car (takes place of late 4th gens Z28), and standard in SS, which would also include whatever appearance and upgraded performance options the SS package would consist of.

LS2-optional on SS, standard on Z/28.

There, the SS and Z have the same engine, and are differentiated by content and appearance, but are still probably pretty similar in performance. I'm sure the SS would FAR outsell the Z, simply because it would appeal to a greater audience.

This is the same lineup as the late 4th gens w/ 2 exceptions. The first is that the Z28's place is taken by the base car w/ a V8. In essence, take off the Z28 badge off an LS1 car and there you have it for comparison. You get the same engine in the SS, but you get the SS's apearance/performance mods to distinguish it, just as the 4th gens did. The second exception is the addition of a much more potent top performance model, and this is driven mainly by the competition. Camaro simply cannot have 400+ hp competition from Ford and Dodge and not have a competitive car in that segment. I believe that there is just too big a gap in a V6 base car and a 400+ hp SS/Z28 to NOT have a midlevel V8. GM of course will market the bigger engine as a highly desireable option to the enthusiast customer, and even though it probably doesn't cost any more for GM to build it, why would they not do it if they could make a few grand off the option?

The one area where Camaro might just have an exclusive, is the prospect of 2 top models. SS with every every option available, Z/28 for a slightly smaller list of luxuries, but the added benefit of TOP level braking, suspension, gearing, and exhaust. While you're stuck w/ what you get in a Shelby or Challenger, w/ Camaro you get to choose which flavor you want your muscle.