LT1/LT4 Stroker Builder Who's the Best
Registered User
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 482
From: Mukilteo, WA
Great post, Rich. Almost makes me think I should have spent even more on my motor! 
Attention to detail:
I guess some would expect that stuff for free.
For those who don't see all of what I'm talking about, nevermind...... 
And yes, there's much the camera cannot show.
Attention to detail:
I guess some would expect that stuff for free.
For those who don't see all of what I'm talking about, nevermind...... And yes, there's much the camera cannot show.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,525
From: SoCal
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
It looks as though Bret is not available for these anyway. So, it's moot. I am just expressing a personal opinion, not trying to get into the middle of a cat fight. Frankly, I didn't read the posts preceding mine and wasn't aware that a pissing match was going on. Just to be clear: Bret is doing high end stuff. The larger "mass production" vendors are doing something else. If you are like 99% of the users here, you don't need the very high end. As I posted previously, VRE seems like a great outfit.
Rich
Rich
Last edited by rskrause; Jan 23, 2007 at 10:46 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,193
From: San Diego, CA
Is this the same motor that you had to fly out of state to fix? Is this the same motor that was botched by the machine shop before you? Perhaps even the same motor that you did 100% assembly on...an entire long block?
Maybe instead of blaiming another company you should be honest and admit that you had problems with the (probably way overpriced) motor because you, "basically just had a brain fart on two things..." and the cam and heads weren't the problem.
Post:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...91&postcount=6
Thread:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=bret
On another note,
One reason Bauer Racing is being endorsed in this thread is because some of the posters have unmentioned relations with that company. Cough (http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/) Cough.
Not that it is innapropraite to endorse them, just that it might be perdinent to tell people you tune cars for the shop you are endorsing.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
No relation between Kennedy's and Bret. AFAIK, he never even was at the shop. I believe Bob (Kennedy) met Bret and Jon once at the track. Perhaps you (Tireburnin) should get some remote clue to what you are talking about before you post? About the only "relationship" is that Bret may have referred a couple of people who needed tuning. I can't say I remember specifics, it was that trivial.
Thanks for the free advertising though!
Rich
PS: I really have no desire to get in your ***** pissing match. Cars are my hobby, not my business. If it isn't fun, I want no part of it. Bret is a knowledgable guy and if I needed the kind of work he does, I would use him. If you have a problem with him, it's with him. I sure don't though, so don't try to drag me into it.
Thanks for the free advertising though!
Rich
PS: I really have no desire to get in your ***** pissing match. Cars are my hobby, not my business. If it isn't fun, I want no part of it. Bret is a knowledgable guy and if I needed the kind of work he does, I would use him. If you have a problem with him, it's with him. I sure don't though, so don't try to drag me into it.
Last edited by rskrause; Jan 23, 2007 at 03:16 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,525
From: SoCal
PS: I really have no desire to get in your ***** pissing match. Cars are my hobby, not my business. If it isn't fun, I want no part of it. Bret is a knowledgable guy and if I needed the kind of work he does, I would use him. If you have a problem with him, it's with him. I sure don't though, so don't try to drag me into it.
I suppose a definition of 'high-end' would be necessary, because at face value, our respective definitions differ. Surely a 'high-end' specialist has some credible claims, timeslips or customers to back up that reputation, no? All the other builders have had customers chime in to support their respective choices and/or results - where are the hordes of BRE customers that were in receipt of the numerous engines ('puppies') that have been built and/or strapped to the dyno? Seems we read about at least one a week. Were these 'puppies' euthanized on the dyno or on a track?
This is not a pissing contest or a feminine hygiene spewing brawl - a serious question of credibility was asked (pertinent to the orignal poster's topic and asked in a few other threads previously), and unsurprisingly, still no answer other than the anticipated juvenile response.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Actually I had been avoiding adding it all up—and I suggest others avoid it for their engines as well (or at least don’t do it in front of the wife!) if they think $9K is crazy. Stuff adds up.
Sticking with GM heads, LE3+cores and you’re out about $2K. I know many who have spent a lot more than that on LT1 heads so that’s certainly not out of this world. For aftermarket heads, add their casting cost to that.
Then cam, pushrods, studs, guideplates, rockers, chain, Morels, etc, using good stuff that’ll add up to another $1.5K or so. Now you’re down to $5500 left for the shortblock.
Decide on a Canton pan, ATI damper, Fidanza flywheel for around another $1K and you only have $4500 of your original $9K left. And you haven’t even started on the shortblock yet!
Add in a couple extras (say Cometic head gaskets, block core, etc, for a couple examples off the top of my head) and you’re below $4K for the shortblock. That’s not out of line for a build like this. Anybody who thinks so really needs to get out more.
Those numbers are just approximates off the top of my head (like I said, I was trying to avoid this) but it should give you guys an idea of how things add up. It’s even worse when you break each down into all the little <$100 items you don’t even think about. Keep track of them all, add them up in the end and you might be in for a surprise. Does all that stuff just grow on trees for you guys? I know many get by with cheaper parts but mine’s nothing exotic. Start talking aftermarket heads, shaft mount this, offset that, etc and you had better budget accordingly.
I could have saved a ton of money by reusing more of my old parts (flywheel, damper, pan, chain, chain cover, block, lifters, etc, etc, etc) but elected to replace/upgrade for a couple reasons. If you reuse all that stuff you’ll save quite a bit.
Much of the “extra” cost put into this build isn’t going to add much power, but longevity and peace of mind. I’ll put more hard track miles on this thing in one day at the track than most will in years. This is where the extra prep work, attention to detail, quality of machine work, etc, should pay dividends.
Sticking with GM heads, LE3+cores and you’re out about $2K. I know many who have spent a lot more than that on LT1 heads so that’s certainly not out of this world. For aftermarket heads, add their casting cost to that.
Then cam, pushrods, studs, guideplates, rockers, chain, Morels, etc, using good stuff that’ll add up to another $1.5K or so. Now you’re down to $5500 left for the shortblock.
Decide on a Canton pan, ATI damper, Fidanza flywheel for around another $1K and you only have $4500 of your original $9K left. And you haven’t even started on the shortblock yet!
Add in a couple extras (say Cometic head gaskets, block core, etc, for a couple examples off the top of my head) and you’re below $4K for the shortblock. That’s not out of line for a build like this. Anybody who thinks so really needs to get out more.
Those numbers are just approximates off the top of my head (like I said, I was trying to avoid this) but it should give you guys an idea of how things add up. It’s even worse when you break each down into all the little <$100 items you don’t even think about. Keep track of them all, add them up in the end and you might be in for a surprise. Does all that stuff just grow on trees for you guys? I know many get by with cheaper parts but mine’s nothing exotic. Start talking aftermarket heads, shaft mount this, offset that, etc and you had better budget accordingly.
I could have saved a ton of money by reusing more of my old parts (flywheel, damper, pan, chain, chain cover, block, lifters, etc, etc, etc) but elected to replace/upgrade for a couple reasons. If you reuse all that stuff you’ll save quite a bit.
Much of the “extra” cost put into this build isn’t going to add much power, but longevity and peace of mind. I’ll put more hard track miles on this thing in one day at the track than most will in years. This is where the extra prep work, attention to detail, quality of machine work, etc, should pay dividends.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Thanks Rich, Nate, Jon. Yes it does feel like we are all in high school around here.
Seems like the only people who ever have a problem with me are the ones that I WOULD NEVER DO WORK FOR and THANK GOD they would never come to me, not to mention the one connection they all have where this starts from. I guess lying, rumor spreading, e-mail behind the back *******s attracts those same people for customers. The only guys on this forum or any LT1 forum who consistantly have a bad attitude and talk smack like "low life gangsters" always seem to buy their stuff from the same place.... funny thing is it's not all of them, i've had some very nice, great customers from there as well. (BTW this does not include Dwayne, at least not all the time ;-)) Maybe you boys should all take a step back and look at really how dumb you all look.
"I do not buy dreams, I sell them" and "You know what I'm gonna tell god when I meet him, I'm gonna tell him I was framed", sound like quotes from someone I want to buy stuff from. The cocky, ignorant, arrogant asinine attitude must be all your unifing factor. The sad thing is with anyone out there you never know the whole story, you guys obviously know dick about me and other places as well. Ignorance is bliss.....
Either way, all I care is my customers are happy. If that means DRIVING 3000 miles to help them out I do that. I write my own rules in life and one of them is "If you don't like me, I really don't care." At the end of the day i'm not going anywhere and all this BS does is give me some entertainment once in awhile.... really there is nothing more enjoyable than turning off the ignore function and picking on insecure morons once in awhile when I need some entertainment. It's better than HBO!
Have fun kids....
Bret
Seems like the only people who ever have a problem with me are the ones that I WOULD NEVER DO WORK FOR and THANK GOD they would never come to me, not to mention the one connection they all have where this starts from. I guess lying, rumor spreading, e-mail behind the back *******s attracts those same people for customers. The only guys on this forum or any LT1 forum who consistantly have a bad attitude and talk smack like "low life gangsters" always seem to buy their stuff from the same place.... funny thing is it's not all of them, i've had some very nice, great customers from there as well. (BTW this does not include Dwayne, at least not all the time ;-)) Maybe you boys should all take a step back and look at really how dumb you all look.
"I do not buy dreams, I sell them" and "You know what I'm gonna tell god when I meet him, I'm gonna tell him I was framed", sound like quotes from someone I want to buy stuff from.
The cocky, ignorant, arrogant asinine attitude must be all your unifing factor. The sad thing is with anyone out there you never know the whole story, you guys obviously know dick about me and other places as well. Ignorance is bliss.....Either way, all I care is my customers are happy. If that means DRIVING 3000 miles to help them out I do that. I write my own rules in life and one of them is "If you don't like me, I really don't care." At the end of the day i'm not going anywhere and all this BS does is give me some entertainment once in awhile.... really there is nothing more enjoyable than turning off the ignore function and picking on insecure morons once in awhile when I need some entertainment. It's better than HBO!
Have fun kids....
Bret
Registered User
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 482
From: Mukilteo, WA
Oh yeah, that adds to the total too. 
Or was that a hint--you got the check OK I assume? 
As for the rest of this crap, what planet are you people on? The only person to recommend Bret was Mean LT1. Bret said no thanks, he doesn't want to build shortblocks. End of story, right?
The only people "stepping in piles" or "losing credibility" are those who call another guy a liar with no basis for doing so. A guy says he built a couple of motors and is called a liar for it. Nice. Even after seeing pictures they still call him a liar? They say he's the one with credibility problems? That must be how it works on your planet, I guess.
Rich and I were only proving that yes, the motors mentioned in passing do exist and yes, some motors do cost a lot of money. Neither of us "endorced" Bret for the job of building shortblocks as an answer to this thread. He doesn't want to do it anyway. So he needs to become a sponsor to turn down work? Like I said, what's the view like from your planet?
Or was that a hint--you got the check OK I assume? As for the rest of this crap, what planet are you people on? The only person to recommend Bret was Mean LT1. Bret said no thanks, he doesn't want to build shortblocks. End of story, right?
The only people "stepping in piles" or "losing credibility" are those who call another guy a liar with no basis for doing so. A guy says he built a couple of motors and is called a liar for it. Nice. Even after seeing pictures they still call him a liar? They say he's the one with credibility problems? That must be how it works on your planet, I guess.
Rich and I were only proving that yes, the motors mentioned in passing do exist and yes, some motors do cost a lot of money. Neither of us "endorced" Bret for the job of building shortblocks as an answer to this thread. He doesn't want to do it anyway. So he needs to become a sponsor to turn down work? Like I said, what's the view like from your planet?
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,525
From: SoCal
Thanks Rich, Nate, Jon. Yes it does feel like we are all in high school around here.
Seems like the only people who ever have a problem with me are the ones that I WOULD NEVER DO WORK FOR and THANK GOD they would never come to me, not to mention the one connection they all have where this starts from. I guess lying, rumor spreading, e-mail behind the back *******s attracts those same people for customers. The only guys on this forum or any LT1 forum who consistantly have a bad attitude and talk smack like "low life gangsters" always seem to buy their stuff from the same place.... funny thing is it's not all of them, i've had some very nice, great customers from there as well. (BTW this does not include Dwayne, at least not all the time ;-)) Maybe you boys should all take a step back and look at really how dumb you all look.
"I do not buy dreams, I sell them" and "You know what I'm gonna tell god when I meet him, I'm gonna tell him I was framed", sound like quotes from someone I want to buy stuff from. The cocky, ignorant, arrogant asinine attitude must be all your unifing factor. The sad thing is with anyone out there you never know the whole story, you guys obviously know dick about me and other places as well. Ignorance is bliss.....
Either way, all I care is my customers are happy. If that means DRIVING 3000 miles to help them out I do that. I write my own rules in life and one of them is "If you don't like me, I really don't care." At the end of the day i'm not going anywhere and all this BS does is give me some entertainment once in awhile.... really there is nothing more enjoyable than turning off the ignore function and picking on insecure morons once in awhile when I need some entertainment. It's better than HBO!
Have fun kids....
Bret
Seems like the only people who ever have a problem with me are the ones that I WOULD NEVER DO WORK FOR and THANK GOD they would never come to me, not to mention the one connection they all have where this starts from. I guess lying, rumor spreading, e-mail behind the back *******s attracts those same people for customers. The only guys on this forum or any LT1 forum who consistantly have a bad attitude and talk smack like "low life gangsters" always seem to buy their stuff from the same place.... funny thing is it's not all of them, i've had some very nice, great customers from there as well. (BTW this does not include Dwayne, at least not all the time ;-)) Maybe you boys should all take a step back and look at really how dumb you all look.
"I do not buy dreams, I sell them" and "You know what I'm gonna tell god when I meet him, I'm gonna tell him I was framed", sound like quotes from someone I want to buy stuff from.
The cocky, ignorant, arrogant asinine attitude must be all your unifing factor. The sad thing is with anyone out there you never know the whole story, you guys obviously know dick about me and other places as well. Ignorance is bliss.....Either way, all I care is my customers are happy. If that means DRIVING 3000 miles to help them out I do that. I write my own rules in life and one of them is "If you don't like me, I really don't care." At the end of the day i'm not going anywhere and all this BS does is give me some entertainment once in awhile.... really there is nothing more enjoyable than turning off the ignore function and picking on insecure morons once in awhile when I need some entertainment. It's better than HBO!
Have fun kids....
Bret
So again, post your experience, and any credible/relevant information (track times, motorsport titles, client list, etc.) that supports the internet BRE legend. A simple task, and someone so accomplished in the motorsport field with your knowledge, and all the engines your build that we read about, and taste for high-end work surely has at least a few results and known customers who can validate your work and/or expertise.
Is the reality that they do not exist? Prove me wrong, and please leave out the whining excuses and proverbial/anecdotal statements - post facts, please. Your fans are waiting.
Perhaps it is your intention to turn this into a flame war so you can conveniently avoid having to answer the question when this thread gets locked - good plan, but if it gets locked, it won't be because I've personally attacked you.
I hold the BRE e-legend in the highest regard, really. Now prove it exists.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 746
From: Rochester Hills, MI
-Block has been shot-peened.
-Drainback chamfered and screened.
-Valley wall smoothed above drainback.
-Clearance for Morel lifter 'aligner' cut into top boss around lifter bore.
-Head clearanced for 3/8 pushrod.
-New steel oil pump driveshaft.
-Filler in low spots to reduce oil retention?
Anything else?
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,525
From: SoCal
The only people "stepping in piles" or "losing credibility" are those who call another guy a liar with no basis for doing so. A guy says he built a couple of motors and is called a liar for it. Nice. Even after seeing pictures they still call him a liar? They say he's the one with credibility problems? That must be how it works on your planet, I guess.
Credibility and integrity are something everyone should demand when spending the money we do on our cars - you all should demand results of any prospective builder, regardless of the 'camp' you subscribe to.
You can certainly choose to live on planet naivete, but don't hate because I chose the one called accountability.