Lost a lobe (or more) on my solid cammed LT1 yesterday...
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Sorry ya had to find out the hard way.
This is exactly why I got Schubeck lifters with no bearing rollers,they are composite with no axle and float on oil pressure just like your rod bearings. They were spendy(1500) and it won't be too long before they are severely tested on the rollers.
SOME on here think it is a waste of money,but they will see when their's go boom.Even the pressure oiled ones.
The oil thing now is they are taking ALL the anti wear additives (zinc and such) out of the oil for pollution reasons. There are oils that still have them but the Kendall GT1 is the easiest to get. There are some NASCAR oils available but a $7+ a QT it adds up quick.Joe Gibbs sells some and most of your better diesel truck oils still have the full complement of additives like "old school"stuff. Might be worth everybody's time to check into that.
How many miles did ya get to run your regular ones?
According to Dave Crower their HIPPO(pressure oiled)lifters won't last on the street and wouldn't recommend them to me for street duty.
A NASCAR type cam tunnel set up with the jets that squirt on each cam lobe would help but you had better bring your checkbook for LSM Engineering to do it. Been there. Like ya said the groove in the lifter bore will help some also.
If ya can drive it without very much slow/idle RPM's they will last longer,but that's hard to do on a DD.
The oil thing now is they are taking ALL the anti wear additives (zinc and such) out of the oil for pollution reasons. There are oils that still have them but the Kendall GT1(green stuff) is the easiest to get. There are some NASCAR oils available but a $7+ a QT it adds up quick.Joe Gibbs sells some and most of your better diesel truck oils still have the full complement of additives like "old school"stuff. Might be worth everybody's time to check into that.
This is exactly why I got Schubeck lifters with no bearing rollers,they are composite with no axle and float on oil pressure just like your rod bearings. They were spendy(1500) and it won't be too long before they are severely tested on the rollers.
SOME on here think it is a waste of money,but they will see when their's go boom.Even the pressure oiled ones.
The oil thing now is they are taking ALL the anti wear additives (zinc and such) out of the oil for pollution reasons. There are oils that still have them but the Kendall GT1 is the easiest to get. There are some NASCAR oils available but a $7+ a QT it adds up quick.Joe Gibbs sells some and most of your better diesel truck oils still have the full complement of additives like "old school"stuff. Might be worth everybody's time to check into that.
How many miles did ya get to run your regular ones?
According to Dave Crower their HIPPO(pressure oiled)lifters won't last on the street and wouldn't recommend them to me for street duty.
A NASCAR type cam tunnel set up with the jets that squirt on each cam lobe would help but you had better bring your checkbook for LSM Engineering to do it. Been there. Like ya said the groove in the lifter bore will help some also.
If ya can drive it without very much slow/idle RPM's they will last longer,but that's hard to do on a DD.
The oil thing now is they are taking ALL the anti wear additives (zinc and such) out of the oil for pollution reasons. There are oils that still have them but the Kendall GT1(green stuff) is the easiest to get. There are some NASCAR oils available but a $7+ a QT it adds up quick.Joe Gibbs sells some and most of your better diesel truck oils still have the full complement of additives like "old school"stuff. Might be worth everybody's time to check into that.
Last edited by 1racerdude; Nov 15, 2007 at 11:52 PM.
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Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 3,144
From: Jackstandican
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Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 520
From: Perryopolis, Pa
Recently had a solid flat tappet problem & coincidentally it was right after an oil change to synthetic. Should have left the old racing oil in there...
Wynns has a good oil additive as well which contains zinc. It can't hurt to use it in all engines.
True, idle is not good for rollers with high spring tension, but the oil is the key to most failures.
Remember if the cam is large enough, the idle speed will be nearly as high as the speed that most engines drive down the road at....idle lubrication problem eliminated, lol. Then you only have to worry about drivability.
Wynns has a good oil additive as well which contains zinc. It can't hurt to use it in all engines.
True, idle is not good for rollers with high spring tension, but the oil is the key to most failures.
Remember if the cam is large enough, the idle speed will be nearly as high as the speed that most engines drive down the road at....idle lubrication problem eliminated, lol. Then you only have to worry about drivability.
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,431
From: Pacific North West
As a many have said not the best Street setup. I got away with it years ago.....damn i guess 14 years ago.. on a street car for a few years. Weather conditions from -40 to 120 Degrees. I talked in depth with a guys at Erson on the setup.
I was running 20-50w oil with an Idle of 1,100-1,200. That may sound high but it really wasn't with the 4,500 converter. Spring pressure was 375 on the seat and 710 over the nose. would pull to 8,500 like no tomorrow!
That was years ago. I am going to go back to a solid roller when I go to the new top end but the car really is not street driven much any more
I was running 20-50w oil with an Idle of 1,100-1,200. That may sound high but it really wasn't with the 4,500 converter. Spring pressure was 375 on the seat and 710 over the nose. would pull to 8,500 like no tomorrow!
That was years ago. I am going to go back to a solid roller when I go to the new top end but the car really is not street driven much any more
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
Lobe comparsion (from Comp's catalog, 'cause I had it handy and not 'cause I shill for Comp, with whom I am becoming disenchanted).
There is no need to get all defensiive if you run a SR on a streeter. I am just trying to illustrate my point that in the duration range typically used for street, the lobe profiles are very similar. Now, there IS an advantage to the SR setup in that to control the valves you can just put a whopper of a spring on. That has some problems too, but setting up a HR valvetrain for high revs with aggressive lobes requires more compromises and finesse. Comps XE lobes are notorious for not revving unless the setup is just right. The first time I used them I was very satisfied, the second time I had to change the setup to get it to work. The beehives are supposed to be the ticket for that, though I have not used them myself and therefore can only relate what I have heard.
Rich
- HR #3015 274/224/149 0.358"
- SR #4871 262/224/147 0.360"
- SR #1496 268/224/141 0.350"
- HR #3039 300/248/169 0.362"
- SR #4875 286/248/170 0.384"
There is no need to get all defensiive if you run a SR on a streeter. I am just trying to illustrate my point that in the duration range typically used for street, the lobe profiles are very similar. Now, there IS an advantage to the SR setup in that to control the valves you can just put a whopper of a spring on. That has some problems too, but setting up a HR valvetrain for high revs with aggressive lobes requires more compromises and finesse. Comps XE lobes are notorious for not revving unless the setup is just right. The first time I used them I was very satisfied, the second time I had to change the setup to get it to work. The beehives are supposed to be the ticket for that, though I have not used them myself and therefore can only relate what I have heard.
Rich
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
Denny and several others have had their Solid Roller cams not live as Daily drivers due to the combination of high valve spring pressures and the lack of adequate oil volume at idle. Add my name to that sad list. The car really ran super strong and I was so happy with it. Yesterday morning, I started the car and it was loping away happily as I walked back into the house and waited for the frost on the window to melt for about 4 minutes. Imagine the sick feeling in my stomach as I walked out the door to hear a strange chirping noise that seemed timed to the crank. I opened the hood quickly, trying to listen for the source of the chirp. As I passed my head back and forth from one side of the valve covers to other, it seemed to be coming up from the top of the intake manifold. I shut off the engine. Stood there staring at it and thinking. "Loose spark plug?" I hoped. "Pushrod on the pushrod guides?" I wished. "Loss of bearing?" I grimaced. "Loss of a cam lobe?" I winced.
I pulled the dipstick. No glitter from bearings, so I sighed in marginalized relief. I started checking the spark plugs. Darn, all tight. I pulled the magnetic oil pan bolt. Hmmm.. a few more metal whiskers than usual but nothing big nor alarming. Could be pushrod/guide scuffings. Pulled off the drivers side valve cover. I pushed and pulled on each rocker, all in various states of opening, closing, at rest. Nothing odd so far. Hmm.. that #7 cylinders rocker feel a tad larger than .010 lash. I got out my feeler gauges and checked it. Well, it's .012 so maybe since the motor has cooled off, it's within margin. I decided to go ahead and set every valves lash to see if anything looked odd. Cylinder 7, all good, Cylinder 5, all good, Cylinder 3, all good, Cylinder 1 intake, ohhhhhh crap. It had like .040 lash. I noticed when I was rotating the crank that this valve didn't seem to depress very far. So... I've been getting my turbo shortblock setup on a leisurely pace. Looks like I'll be cranking up the timeline on it now.
David K. Wilson
I pulled the dipstick. No glitter from bearings, so I sighed in marginalized relief. I started checking the spark plugs. Darn, all tight. I pulled the magnetic oil pan bolt. Hmmm.. a few more metal whiskers than usual but nothing big nor alarming. Could be pushrod/guide scuffings. Pulled off the drivers side valve cover. I pushed and pulled on each rocker, all in various states of opening, closing, at rest. Nothing odd so far. Hmm.. that #7 cylinders rocker feel a tad larger than .010 lash. I got out my feeler gauges and checked it. Well, it's .012 so maybe since the motor has cooled off, it's within margin. I decided to go ahead and set every valves lash to see if anything looked odd. Cylinder 7, all good, Cylinder 5, all good, Cylinder 3, all good, Cylinder 1 intake, ohhhhhh crap. It had like .040 lash. I noticed when I was rotating the crank that this valve didn't seem to depress very far. So... I've been getting my turbo shortblock setup on a leisurely pace. Looks like I'll be cranking up the timeline on it now.
David K. Wilson
Just curious.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,734
From: Kansas City suburb of
Nobody seems to believe me when I make the following statements:
Rich
- Do not use a solid roller on a street car.
- Do not use a cog belt blower on a street car.
- You may well be sorry if you put a non-OD automatic in your street car.
- You probably will not be happy with a spool in a street car.
- Do not install solid motor mounts on a street car.
Rich
I completely agree with statements 1 2 and 5 though.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
It's not the solid roller lifters fault as much as it's the spring loads open and closed that are being pushed on it. If you had some tame lobes and lightweight parts in there with a light spring you would have zero issues with that on the street. In fact oddly enough I know of a spare parts beater motor right now that is being built with 130lbs seated, .660" lift SR lobes and Ti valves that should have zero problems on the street.
Sorry to hear about it though.
Bret
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
Yes. I checked each of the drivers’ side rockers. Every one of the locknuts was tight. It actually was running great till that morning and even with that, it was fine upon startup. I seem to curse myself with bad luck by remarking on both the earlier 355 and 383 about how great they're running. The following day seems to bring unforeseen disaster. The 355 stripped off every tooth of the oil pump drive while I was idling along at 20 mph in a school zone dropping my daughter off to school. The day before this 383 had this issue, it was running fantastically. I thought "How lucky am I to have this car I've built on my own and it's able to spin the tires at the top of third just accelerating?". I parked it in my driveway and went into the house. Next morning, Just like many other days, I started the car to defrost the windows. It started fine, first crank. Idles perfectly, not a single unusual sound. Oil pressure is 65-70psi, idle RPM is 1,000. Oil is Mobil 1 full synth. Filter is Wix 51060. Oil is one month old, approx 700 miles on that liquid.
I wish I'd known about the oil additives being stripped. Oh well, live and learn. Where does one buy those oils with the zinc, etc typically? NAPA? The Net? I want to make sure that I use this oil for my new turbo motor.
I wish I'd known about the oil additives being stripped. Oh well, live and learn. Where does one buy those oils with the zinc, etc typically? NAPA? The Net? I want to make sure that I use this oil for my new turbo motor.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,983
From: Jacksonville,fla
Sorry to hear about the motor, sounded like a stought setup. I like to learn from peoples experiences. Looks like a bronze oil pump gear would have helped out as well some light weight valvtrain parts. Anybody else have any suggestions that couldve made this motor last a bit longer on the street?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
A bronze gear on the 355 hydraulic motor? Yes. That would've helped I'm sure. I didn't think the Cam Motions Hyd Roller needed a bronze gear but I guess you never know. I should've asked when I ordered that cam. I knew for solid cams the general rule was to run either a bronze or a composite gear(though I've read some dissent on the polymer gears on some boards). I ordered that cam for my 355. It spec'd out as:
I/E dur 232/241 @ .050
I/E Lift .565/.594
LSA: 111.9
As far as lightweight components, I use titanium retainers. The springs are K-Motion K1100, specified by Cam Motions themselves. TFS 7.90" Pushrods. 10 degree locks. CC ProMag 7/16" stud 1.6 rockers. Crane Bronze gear. GM guideplates.
I/E dur 232/241 @ .050
I/E Lift .565/.594
LSA: 111.9
As far as lightweight components, I use titanium retainers. The springs are K-Motion K1100, specified by Cam Motions themselves. TFS 7.90" Pushrods. 10 degree locks. CC ProMag 7/16" stud 1.6 rockers. Crane Bronze gear. GM guideplates.
Sorry to hear about the motor, sounded like a stout setup. I like to learn from peoples experiences. Looks like a bronze oil pump gear would have helped out as well some light weight valvtrain parts. Anybody else have any suggestions that couldve made this motor last a bit longer on the street?
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Dave,
The only oil I use on serious stuff since the '60's.
Go here:
http://www.amref.com/
They bought Kendall and are reproducing the exact same GT1 from the '60's.
Never lost a sprint car engine with it.
The only oil I use on serious stuff since the '60's.
Go here:
http://www.amref.com/
They bought Kendall and are reproducing the exact same GT1 from the '60's.
Never lost a sprint car engine with it.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
Many thanks! I'll have a look and order some.
Dave
Dave
Dave,
The only oil I use on serious stuff since the '60's.
Go here:
http://www.amref.com/
They bought Kendall and are reproducing the exact same GT1 from the '60's.
Never lost a sprint car engine with it.
The only oil I use on serious stuff since the '60's.
Go here:
http://www.amref.com/
They bought Kendall and are reproducing the exact same GT1 from the '60's.
Never lost a sprint car engine with it.