Lost a lobe (or more) on my solid cammed LT1 yesterday...
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,935
From: Mobile, Ala..USA
Yeh comp sells the EOS, suprised he doesnt know that
Is on the counter at my local speed shop.
SO what you guys are saying is EVERY street driven solid rollers days are numbered? That is the impression I get here. My car is not daily driven but sees it share of cruises and traffic.
I pulled my cam out at 1500 miles, the majority of it in HOT slow traffic at a cruise....not a mark on it, looks new as do the rollers.
I have hot idle oil pressure of 35 psi, running Shell Rotella 15-40 and a K&N oil filter#3002.
Bret knows my valvetrain setup(because I got it from him) I got some good stuff , along with comp endurex lifters.....so are ALL solid rollers on borrowed time?
And if so, what can I do to prolong its life?
David
Is on the counter at my local speed shop.SO what you guys are saying is EVERY street driven solid rollers days are numbered? That is the impression I get here. My car is not daily driven but sees it share of cruises and traffic.
I pulled my cam out at 1500 miles, the majority of it in HOT slow traffic at a cruise....not a mark on it, looks new as do the rollers.
I have hot idle oil pressure of 35 psi, running Shell Rotella 15-40 and a K&N oil filter#3002.
Bret knows my valvetrain setup(because I got it from him) I got some good stuff , along with comp endurex lifters.....so are ALL solid rollers on borrowed time?
And if so, what can I do to prolong its life?
David
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; Nov 26, 2007 at 07:32 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 35
At least wrt the valvetrain, race profile solid flat tappets are by far the most demanding in terms of lubrication. The high spring pressures needed are working through a very small contact area at the lifter face/cam lobe interface. As the zinc has been taken out of even "race" oils, there started to be failures in those solid flat tappet setups. That's how the change in oil formulation became known to the average racer. For those setups, it is really imperative to use one of the oils or additives I suggested in an eariler post. Brad Penn, Rotella-T, additives, etc.
There would be other resons to pick an oil with a HR or street SR, which have much lower loads at the roller/cam interface. Many different oils will give good service there. Opinions vary, but I am personally not a strong believer in synthetics for MY performance or race motors. They get rebuilt long before they wear out, so the small performance gain due to lower friction does not justify the cost, to me. I put close to 25,000 miles per year on my DD and I also use dino oil there. Typically, I buy them new and use them for 125-150,000 miles. I change oil every 5-7,500 miles and have never seen any abnormal wear. The last Silverado I had was an '01 and it had exactly the same oil pressure as new when I sold it at 120,000 miles.
If you are running very high spring pressures on a solid roller, then I would also go for a high zinc oil. This is not based on any data, just logic starting with the flat tappet problems. But there is far too much hype around oil to have a rational discussion on it. You can get people all in a huff saying synthetic isn't worth it. Before you put any creedence in their opinion, ask them how many motors they have torn down, whether they have EVER seen a failure related to the oil brand used, etc. It's really much ado about almost nothing wrt street cars. You could probably use ANY oil meeting the current API specification, even the cheapest stuff you could buy, and not notice any difference if you had a reasonable change interval. I have no problem spending 30, 40, or $50,000 on a car but I refuse to put $8/qt oil in it for no reason. If I ever bought a very expensive street car or a vintage race car and planned to keep it in original condition for many years I would consider synthetic. I suppose rebuilding a Ferrari V-12 is something I would want to put off as long as possible. But since that isn't in my future, I doubt I will ever be doing it.
Rich
There would be other resons to pick an oil with a HR or street SR, which have much lower loads at the roller/cam interface. Many different oils will give good service there. Opinions vary, but I am personally not a strong believer in synthetics for MY performance or race motors. They get rebuilt long before they wear out, so the small performance gain due to lower friction does not justify the cost, to me. I put close to 25,000 miles per year on my DD and I also use dino oil there. Typically, I buy them new and use them for 125-150,000 miles. I change oil every 5-7,500 miles and have never seen any abnormal wear. The last Silverado I had was an '01 and it had exactly the same oil pressure as new when I sold it at 120,000 miles.
If you are running very high spring pressures on a solid roller, then I would also go for a high zinc oil. This is not based on any data, just logic starting with the flat tappet problems. But there is far too much hype around oil to have a rational discussion on it. You can get people all in a huff saying synthetic isn't worth it. Before you put any creedence in their opinion, ask them how many motors they have torn down, whether they have EVER seen a failure related to the oil brand used, etc. It's really much ado about almost nothing wrt street cars. You could probably use ANY oil meeting the current API specification, even the cheapest stuff you could buy, and not notice any difference if you had a reasonable change interval. I have no problem spending 30, 40, or $50,000 on a car but I refuse to put $8/qt oil in it for no reason. If I ever bought a very expensive street car or a vintage race car and planned to keep it in original condition for many years I would consider synthetic. I suppose rebuilding a Ferrari V-12 is something I would want to put off as long as possible. But since that isn't in my future, I doubt I will ever be doing it.
Rich
Example: Most turbo charged cars come from the factory with syn and should only run a 100 % synthetic oil. Look at the fiasco with the VW 1.8T engine that did NOT specify synthetic.
On a road course where oil temps can routinely exceed 240-270+ degrees, a robust synthetic oil is mandatory. My C4 Corvette routinely runs 220 crusing down the highway - I can only imagine temps on a road track - thats why GM specs a synthetic for the Vette.
In addition, syn oils require less viscosity improvers (which are prone to shearing down). There is a reason why Syn Diesel oils are 5w40 and conventional are 15W40
As far as cost, You can get Syn Oils for $4 a quart or less on sale or every day at wally world. Thats about $2 more than a conventional on sale.
For $10 more an oil change, I believe the benefits outweight the savings.
Moral or the story, use an appropriate oil for your application and make sure the oil is up to operating temperature before beating on the car.
Last edited by TenSecondZ; Nov 26, 2007 at 11:56 PM.
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
I agree with a lot of what you have said - but a couple of items - In extreme temperatures both hot and cold, or engines know to be sludge monsters, a good group 4 or 5 base synthetic oil has a significant advantage in cold flow properties and high temperature stability.
Example: Most turbo charged cars come from the factory with syn and should only run a 100 % synthetic oil. Look at the fiasco with the VW 1.8T engine that did NOT specify synthetic.
On a road course where oil temps can routinely exceed 240-270+ degrees, a robust synthetic oil is mandatory. My C4 Corvette routinely runs 220 crusing down the highway - I can only imagine temps on a road track - thats why GM specs a synthetic for the Vette.
In addition, syn oils require less viscosity improvers (which are prone to shearing down). There is a reason why Syn Diesel oils are 5w40 and conventional are 15W40
As far as cost, You can get Syn Oils for $4 a quart or less on sale or every day at wally world. Thats about $2 more than a conventional on sale.
For $10 more an oil change, I believe the benefits outweight the savings.
Moral or the story, use an appropriate oil for your application and make sure the oil is up to operating temperature before beating on the car.
Example: Most turbo charged cars come from the factory with syn and should only run a 100 % synthetic oil. Look at the fiasco with the VW 1.8T engine that did NOT specify synthetic.
On a road course where oil temps can routinely exceed 240-270+ degrees, a robust synthetic oil is mandatory. My C4 Corvette routinely runs 220 crusing down the highway - I can only imagine temps on a road track - thats why GM specs a synthetic for the Vette.
In addition, syn oils require less viscosity improvers (which are prone to shearing down). There is a reason why Syn Diesel oils are 5w40 and conventional are 15W40
As far as cost, You can get Syn Oils for $4 a quart or less on sale or every day at wally world. Thats about $2 more than a conventional on sale.
For $10 more an oil change, I believe the benefits outweight the savings.
Moral or the story, use an appropriate oil for your application and make sure the oil is up to operating temperature before beating on the car.
Those are good points!
Rich
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
I agree with the proper oil for the app.
In the case of the rollers it would be Kendall GT-1.
Normal mech rollers are doomed when put in street clothes, even the pressure oiled ones and all the band aid fixes that are done to try and save things.
This is why I posted earlier that Dave Crower owner of Crower cams would NOT recommend his HIPPO(pressure oiled) lifters for street duty.
I bought a set of Schubeck composit lifters a while back to prevent this problem and was ragged on and thought stupid(we will see) for spending over 1500 for them. Ya also got to have the right parts for the job. I will see shortly.
One thing is-- if they break I won't have metal throughout the engine.
"Parts ain't parts"
"Oil ain't oil either"
In the case of the rollers it would be Kendall GT-1.
Normal mech rollers are doomed when put in street clothes, even the pressure oiled ones and all the band aid fixes that are done to try and save things.
This is why I posted earlier that Dave Crower owner of Crower cams would NOT recommend his HIPPO(pressure oiled) lifters for street duty.
I bought a set of Schubeck composit lifters a while back to prevent this problem and was ragged on and thought stupid(we will see) for spending over 1500 for them. Ya also got to have the right parts for the job. I will see shortly.
One thing is-- if they break I won't have metal throughout the engine.
"Parts ain't parts"
"Oil ain't oil either"
Last edited by 1racerdude; Nov 27, 2007 at 07:03 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,970
From: Goochland, Va.
cause he said so.......
I know plenty of people who have used them on the streets.......think about all the performance cars etc. that came with solids/flat tappets long ago....if its an oil problem then do what you need to do.
If its a ramp problem then fix it...if its springs...fix that, but noone here has any solid answers on anything so I'm going over to ls1tech
I know plenty of people who have used them on the streets.......think about all the performance cars etc. that came with solids/flat tappets long ago....if its an oil problem then do what you need to do.
If its a ramp problem then fix it...if its springs...fix that, but noone here has any solid answers on anything so I'm going over to ls1tech
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Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 3,144
From: Jackstandican
cause he said so.......
I know plenty of people who have used them on the streets.......think about all the performance cars etc. that came with solids/flat tappets long ago....if its an oil problem then do what you need to do.
If its a ramp problem then fix it...if its springs...fix that, but noone here has any solid answers on anything so I'm going over to ls1tech
I know plenty of people who have used them on the streets.......think about all the performance cars etc. that came with solids/flat tappets long ago....if its an oil problem then do what you need to do.
If its a ramp problem then fix it...if its springs...fix that, but noone here has any solid answers on anything so I'm going over to ls1tech
I've put a thousand miles on mine so far w/out a hitch. I had great advice from Jordon Musser who told me to not skimp on the lifters. The car has been in stop/go traffic (not by my choice) for an hour straight in 75* weather and performed flawlessly.
I guess the only way I'll say a SR sucks on the street is if I have a breakdown myself.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,970
From: Goochland, Va.
I've put a thousand miles on mine so far w/out a hitch. I had great advice from Jordon Musser who told me to not skimp on the lifters. The car has been in stop/go traffic (not by my choice) for an hour straight in 75* weather and performed flawlessly.
I guess the only way I'll say a SR sucks on the street is if I have a breakdown myself.
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Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 3,144
From: Jackstandican
Probably, but yeah I reckon the only thing that "sucks" a bit more maintanence required. I'm still trying to figure out how springs can be checked with the engine in the car. If I don't come up w/ a conclusion then I'm just going to buy another set, put them on and have the other ones tested and swap them out every year (car is maybe driven once a week) and monitor the pressures. Any advice?
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,970
From: Goochland, Va.
moroso a jdm products or something like that makes a tester to check them with the engine in the car, They sell them at race shops. Not 100% accurate but they give you a really good idea of where you are at
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Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 3,144
From: Jackstandican
For anyone who is interested:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Supposed to be low profile for tube chassis cars. mdacton has said he's seen this work under the cowl of a 4th gen, however w/ high spring pressures and a short leeever... "you better eat your Weaties..."
So you've witnessed first hand failures from the likes of the Red Zones and EndureXes and HIPPOzes with undisputed, undoubted proof it was the fault of said lifter to come up with such a conclusion? 
... or is this more "Comp R" type logic...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Supposed to be low profile for tube chassis cars. mdacton has said he's seen this work under the cowl of a 4th gen, however w/ high spring pressures and a short leeever... "you better eat your Weaties..."
... or is this more "Comp R" type logic...
Last edited by SS RRR; Nov 28, 2007 at 03:28 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 752
From: Double Oak TX
The person whom I sold one of my solid roller Cam Motion cams to also had a loose rocker loosing a cam lobe.
When going back to a hydraulic setup, so far I not experienced any loose rockers. Just coincidence or I may have gotten better at tightening rockers I guess.