Charlie, when it comes down to it -- putting aside matters of styling and taste, the Camaro adds 250 pounds to add IRS. I really think you're letting your disappointment about weight cloud your judgment on this issue. Most people who buy these cars will never take them on a track or put them on a scale or ever know about weight.

Look how well the Challenger is still selling, in spite of it adding a further 250 pounds to the Camaro's weight. For most of the 80s and 90s, the Camaro was a couple of pounds heavier than the Mustang, but that had little to do with sales successes either way.

Besides, a few years ago, you were adamant that the Camaro had to have IRS, and that a solid axle was akin to square wheels. Apparently, a bit of weight loss is even more important now? I don't get it.

Don't get me wrong. I think the '11 Mustang V6 and GT are awesome ripostes to the Camaro V6 and SS, but I just don't see the situation to be that dire for the Camaro.

 

The notion that IRS adds 250 pounds to this car or any other is, in a word, ridiculous. It adds weight, sure, but not that much - we've covered that ground afew times.

Anyways, it's pretty apparent that Team Camaro will have it's hands full competing over the next few years and it'll be interesting to see how they'll respond to the 5.0 GT, new V6 Mustang, SVT Boss, and revised GT500 and afew other Mustang models.
Whether I'm disappointed or not is irrelevant.


Happy New Year guys......I'm outta here!!!

 

To someone who is not a performance driver..or who has not been to Bondourant, understeer feels more responsive. (if you don't know better)

 

I didn't say that it did. What I meant to communicate is that with the Camaro, you get an extra 250 pounds, but you also get IRS. I was not wanting to discuss where the weight came from, as it has been covered before.

But as far as covering old ground, I've read comments from you about the Camaro and the need for a new one ASAP a few (several) times before. So I figure you're okay with that.

It is relevant to your judgment and opinion though probably not to the Camaro's sales numbers, unless you manage to turn buyers off (I have no idea how many potential buyers you may influence -- probably yourself at least ).

 

You too sir... I'll be forgetting all about Camaros and Mustangs myself in a couple of hours!

 

Understeer gets the driver out of trouble more easily (than an oversteer situation) as the driver just needs to lift off and tuck the nose in.

Conversely, oversteer demands more steering/throttle input to keep the car tracking straight.

 

I would say an HSV GTS would make the new Mustang eat its dust and it's 400lbs heavier. A moot point, maybe, but it puts your unqualified comment to rest in regards to your 'impossible' statement. You seem to be just too hung up on your personal weight issues of the 5G. What was that comment of yours in regards to anti-enthusiasts, again?

Not all big, powerful cars handle poorly around racetracks (MB E63 is the ultimate example). GM's case in point:

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new..._e2_gts_review

http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2...v-e2-gts-16764

 

I had the same experience trying to climb in an Audi TT once ( ). Sounds like you are built like I am. The only vehicle I recall driving where lack of legroom really bothered me was a regular cab S10 pickup. But HEADROOM is a problem on almost any new car. If they have a sunroof, forget about it. My wife's '03 Saturn L200 is a decently sized midsize sedan, but she got it with the sunroof. I have to contort myself to ride in or drive it.

The other problem with my mutant frame is that my arms are rather short for my height. So I have to be a bit closer to the steering wheel. Fortunately this doesn't pose a big legroom problem, but it can exaggerate the headroom issue. Anyway, my next car will be a droptop, which has infinite headroom.

My one disappointment with the Mustang refresh is that they did not add a telescoping wheel. However, I've had a couple of '05-'09 V6 coupes as rentals, and I do not recall having too much difficulty finding an acceptable driving position despite the lack of reach adjustment. I sat in a 2010 GT coupe at the auto show the other day, and I think I could get around no-telescope issue.

 

Obviously, it won't come instantaneously, we'll have this one for now. Time to get it's development on the front burner though.


I think it's safe to say that I have great influence over my own buying decisions.

 

My problem is, no matter how much more hp the new Mustang has, the exterior does absolutely nothing for me. There is no passion in the design, and it stirs no emotions when I see one, as if you seen one you've seen them all. This is where Camaro shines, as every time I see one I get goosebumps and a smile on my face, and I can't wait to see another one. I think the Mustang design is just too watered down, or maybe with so many out there the just blend in for me, whic could mean they are a victim of their own success. I think the new v6 will do more for the Mustang sales than the new v8.

 

Or, in other words, you are saying that the Mustang is a victim of its own success??

 

A little bit of that, and blind loyalty. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but some people just want a Mustang because it's a Mustang. Again, not a bad thing, and I wish the Camaro had that kind of following among the public, but I think it keeps Ford from coming out with a more revolutionary exterior design for fear of pissing off the Mustang followers, and that keeps me from ever seriously cross-shopping it with Camaro.

 

I agree with what you say, but I don't feel you are anywhere close to the reasons.

Mustang does absolutely nothing for you because there is something like 1 million of the current design on the streets already, and the new Mustang is simply a variation of the 2004-2009 version. That's it.

When the Mustang hit the streets in 2004, it sold 141,907 cars.
GM expects to sell no more than 60,00 Camaros this model year.
As of December 1st, Ford sold 60,000 Mustangs, and it was one of the worst sales years in Mustang history.

Point is that Camaro benefits from a new design as Mustang did in 2004 that will get old as soon as it's been out a few years and we see plenty of them on the streets. Mustang's design (though refreshed) has been around 6 years. Camaro's has been around 8 months.

As with every single car design in automotive history (even ones that eventually became classics), all cars... and I mean ALL cars reach a point where their looks become yesterday's news, the public's attention goes elsewhere, and the design's sent to the garbage heap in favor of another one which (in the case of successful designs) usually doesn't quite measure up.

The coupe marketplace is very fickled and design oriented.

The latest fashion is often the latest "must have".

Mustang had that position in 2004-2005.

Camaro has it today.

Ford's Mustang is much closer to an all new design than Camaro is.


FWIW:
Although I'll give Camaro some very serious props on it's styling (at least outside, anyway), I wouldn't call Mustang's current design passionless or stirs no emotion. The new Mustang looks quite aggressive, and stylish.

It's just that Camaro's is so over the top, and is pulled off so well, it has the capacity to make any car parked next to it (save for maybe the very attractive looking Dodge Challenger) dissappear.

 

What guion said sound about right on. We're comparing a refresh of a car that has been out since 2004 (05 model year) to a car that has only months ago hit the streets. Obviously, one is going to look fresher while the other comes off as something you've already seen 2 million times.

As great and sexy as the camaro's exterior looks, it's the interior that will prevent me from seriously considering it. The mustang on the other hand doesn't have as sexy looking exterior (it's still great looking), but has a far better interior imo. When looking at both interior and exterior, i think the mustang comes off as the better styled. Just my opinion. If the current camaro came with something like the G8's interior, i'd be completely sold.

I hope the next gen camaro comes with a better looking interior.

 

I simply can't imagine how it wouldn't. But hey.... you never know...