Camaro-from the horse
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 91Zman:
Again you make another totally stupid ignorant comment.Every gen went through the cheap/affordable years.So naturally people that happen to live in trailor parks are going to buy them,just like your T/A.2ndgens were plentiful in the t-parks before hand and now it's the 3rdgens' turn as will be the 4ths in a very few years if not now from what I hear.I don't go searching for them at the t-parks or on the web it may hurt you 4thgen owners feelings.4thgens may not go in trailor parks.Those people probably couldn't afford to work on the "engine compartment" the way it is.They surely couldn't afford to pay a mechanic,let alone to do it themselves.Couldn't afford the $300+ to give it a proper tuneup lol.They may be able to afford a 4thgen soon though.On ebay someone has an '93 Z28 with the buy it now price of $3500 I believe.Again for the paint jobs,4thgens will have the same problems 10 years after the last one rolls off the lots.So just try to think before you type again.
[This message has been edited by 91Zman (edited July 15, 2002).]
Originally posted by formula79:
Is the 3rd gen a great car?
They are the best lawn ornaments for a trailor that money can buy.
I see the 4th gen has an evolution of the 3rd gen...with that in mind there is no way a 3rd gen is better. I almost wonder if the build quality on my 79 Firebird wasn't better than the 3rd gen.
This whole converstion IMO is almost laughable. I mean hell if I owned a 3rd gen I would defend it too...I wouldnt wanna realize what a POS it can be. Find me an IROC Z with the factory paint and no oxideation and we will talk.
</font>
Is the 3rd gen a great car?
They are the best lawn ornaments for a trailor that money can buy.
I see the 4th gen has an evolution of the 3rd gen...with that in mind there is no way a 3rd gen is better. I almost wonder if the build quality on my 79 Firebird wasn't better than the 3rd gen.
This whole converstion IMO is almost laughable. I mean hell if I owned a 3rd gen I would defend it too...I wouldnt wanna realize what a POS it can be. Find me an IROC Z with the factory paint and no oxideation and we will talk.
</font>
[This message has been edited by 91Zman (edited July 15, 2002).]
Anyone who says that a 3rd gen is better than a 4th gen is smoking better crack than I can buy on any street corner here in DC.
I am not saying that the 3rd Gen was a bad car...it was great in its day. The sad part is that they don't seem to hold up well over time. I see alot of daily driver 4th gens that look good after 5-8 years, yet most 3rd seemed to last much less time before they stearted falling to crap under normal use. Some may have garaged non-daily driven cars that are nice, but the average daily driven 3rd gen doesnt hold up well over the same period of time as a 4th. I remember seeing IROC's with oxided hoods early as the late 80's.
A 4th gen is an evolution of the 3rd gen, so I would hope it is better than the previous car.
I mean a 4th gen can come with 40-75 more HP than the best L98 and have comperable handling. The interior is better quality and the cars seem to hold up much better.
Some people may like looks more, but I think in terms of what were are talking about it is obvious when looking at non subjective things that the 4th gen is a better car....
That is my last post on the subject
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
GM shouldn't have even built a follow-up generation, because it was doomed to fail from the start in some people's eyes. I shudder when I think of how they'll receive a V8, IRS, Sigma 5th Gen Camaro if it doesn't look exactly like an '88 IROC or something...
</font>
GM shouldn't have even built a follow-up generation, because it was doomed to fail from the start in some people's eyes. I shudder when I think of how they'll receive a V8, IRS, Sigma 5th Gen Camaro if it doesn't look exactly like an '88 IROC or something...
</font>
The 3rd gens were great. They were styling, image, handling leaders in their day. But now they are a part of Camaro history (as is the 4th gen).
I'm hoping for a quantum leap in design, engineering, quality and performance in a 5th gen.
We've already had one rehash of the 3rd gen....time for a clean sheet for a 5th gen!
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 403
From: Wish I knew..
I was just rambling in that post,basically just turnig around the spiteful remarks you all have been directing toward us.It was just to see if I could get a few of the haters to bite.I never said that the 3rdgen was a better car.It's d!CKS like you who bring up posts like this just to put down an old car and that's stupid.Yet again you keep making ignorant statements regarding an old car.Cars get old,things wear out and come undone.It happens to all cars with age.4thgens don't have some magical spell put on them to prevent wear so there.Have you been reading the posts of 4thgen owners complaining about their problems with their cars' build quality and other issues,apparently not.If you had ever read through posts about paint jobs everybody basically complains about that and the certain factory their car came from.Shall I post some pics for you of some early 4th gens' factory paint jobs?As for the hp the 90-92 Camaros and T/A-Firebird formulas had 245hp which was 30hp less than the '93-96Zs which weigh more than the 90-92s.And you said generally cars are suppose to be improved upon the last generation in the next generation.It's evolution.Handling is where the 3rdgen shines better than the 4th.Ride quality is where the 4thgen shines better,and finally hp.No need to comment greatly on that except that later 4thgens shine there.I like the looks better of 3rdgen Camaros better.The ease of the modding..err...ability of working on 3rds better.Soooo..of course 4ths are better,should hope so..evolution.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
And to the other dude, if you work for 1 of the 3 and you are just taking what some1 has told you about Thirds and have made that what you think about them, thats moronic. They're alot better cars than some give credit for. People never want to compare the nice and taken care of cars, instead they wanna compare a Third that has been driven like crazy and never had an oil change or something like that.</font>
And to the other dude, if you work for 1 of the 3 and you are just taking what some1 has told you about Thirds and have made that what you think about them, thats moronic. They're alot better cars than some give credit for. People never want to compare the nice and taken care of cars, instead they wanna compare a Third that has been driven like crazy and never had an oil change or something like that.</font>
Or maybe you think I read the HPP article and said "yeah, that's what I think, too."
Well, if you thought that, then you don't have it right. I used that article to illustrate the shortcomings of 3rd gens. I used it to PROVE my position on the subject.
Z284ever,
Your statement about 3rds being older than 4ths is only partially true. If you compare an 82 to an 02.
But what if we compare a 92 to a 93? They're only 1 year apart.
If these cars were owned and driven in the same geographical region by the same type of owner/driver, I would put money that the 93 is in better condition now than the 92. And we're not talking about areas where there is only good weather all the time. Any car will last in those kind of climates.
I'm talking about an area where the seasons change dramatically with all sorts of different weather. That's a true test of longevity.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 403
From: Wish I knew..
92-93 body comparisson. One's mostly metal the other is mostly plastic.
"They're only 1 year apart.
If these cars were owned and driven in the same geographical region by the same type of owner/driver, I would put money that the 93 is in better condition now than the 92."
Same area and conditions mostly same results.Does the '93 have some kind of magical protective force field that the '92 doesn't?How long a car lasts depends on the driver not the car.
[This message has been edited by 91Zman (edited July 16, 2002).]
"They're only 1 year apart.
If these cars were owned and driven in the same geographical region by the same type of owner/driver, I would put money that the 93 is in better condition now than the 92."
Same area and conditions mostly same results.Does the '93 have some kind of magical protective force field that the '92 doesn't?How long a car lasts depends on the driver not the car.
[This message has been edited by 91Zman (edited July 16, 2002).]
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 10
From: Lapeer
What the!
When I started this post, I started it looking to the future. If people want to turn this into a 3rd vs 4th go right ahead but the point is there is going to be a 5th! I hope sincerly that the new 5th gen will whoop on 3rd gens and 4th gens.
Will I throw my 3rd gen out of my garage because someone says it's a trailer trash car NO! My 3rd gen has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. Yes 3rd gens have had problems but the fact is I FIT IN IT (at 6'4 I have to lay down in a 4th gen) otherwise I think they are great cars. The point of this is to generate hope in the future for us Camaro lovers. You are stupid if you kick any Camaro in any shape out of your garage for virtue of being a "Camaro" there is a perfect place for people like that....THE MUSTANG FORUM!
Go read my next post "Proof of life" and started dreaming and saving for the 5th gen. STOP wasting time comparing a 10 year old car to a 2002 NOT that there is a huge difference---and shouldn't there be! Spend your time sending email to Chevrolet telling them what you want in your next Camaro.
"Make a freakin difference"
Chevrolet:
contact:http://www.chevrolet.com/contactus/index_email.htm
[This message has been edited by JasonD (edited August 05, 2002).]
When I started this post, I started it looking to the future. If people want to turn this into a 3rd vs 4th go right ahead but the point is there is going to be a 5th! I hope sincerly that the new 5th gen will whoop on 3rd gens and 4th gens.
Will I throw my 3rd gen out of my garage because someone says it's a trailer trash car NO! My 3rd gen has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. Yes 3rd gens have had problems but the fact is I FIT IN IT (at 6'4 I have to lay down in a 4th gen) otherwise I think they are great cars. The point of this is to generate hope in the future for us Camaro lovers. You are stupid if you kick any Camaro in any shape out of your garage for virtue of being a "Camaro" there is a perfect place for people like that....THE MUSTANG FORUM!
Go read my next post "Proof of life" and started dreaming and saving for the 5th gen. STOP wasting time comparing a 10 year old car to a 2002 NOT that there is a huge difference---and shouldn't there be! Spend your time sending email to Chevrolet telling them what you want in your next Camaro.
"Make a freakin difference"
Chevrolet:
contact:http://www.chevrolet.com/contactus/index_email.htm
[This message has been edited by JasonD (edited August 05, 2002).]
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 91Zman:
How long a car lasts depends on the driver not the car.
</font>
How long a car lasts depends on the driver not the car.
</font>
And I think the actual car has something to do with it. Certain cars last longer than other cars, just on design & engineering alone. It's a fact of life.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 403
From: Wish I knew..
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
That's what I said. It has to be the same owner/driver or the same type of owner/driver.
And I think the actual car has something to do with it. Certain cars last longer than other cars, just on design & engineering alone. It's a fact of life.
</font>
That's what I said. It has to be the same owner/driver or the same type of owner/driver.
And I think the actual car has something to do with it. Certain cars last longer than other cars, just on design & engineering alone. It's a fact of life.
</font>
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by z28projects4ever:
Go read my next post "Proof of life" and started dreaming and saving for the 5th gen. STOP wasting time comparing a 10 year old car to a 2002 NOT that there is a huge difference---and shouldn't there be! Spend your time sending email to Chevrolet telling them what you want in your next Camaro.
"Make a freakin difference"
Chevrolet:
contact:http://www.chevrolet.com/contactus/index_email.htm
</font>
Go read my next post "Proof of life" and started dreaming and saving for the 5th gen. STOP wasting time comparing a 10 year old car to a 2002 NOT that there is a huge difference---and shouldn't there be! Spend your time sending email to Chevrolet telling them what you want in your next Camaro.
"Make a freakin difference"
Chevrolet:
contact:http://www.chevrolet.com/contactus/index_email.htm
</font>
Love 'em all (the cars, guys!
), pick at one another in fun, but don't waste time or effort in silly feuds. Direct your energies towards making a positive impact on getting a 5th gen that we all will agree on. (Is that possible?!?! 
)Peace.
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 17, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by JasonD (edited August 05, 2002).]
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,610
From: Cincinnati, OH
Just a few things,
My dad had a 69 302 with the 4bbl and the factory headers. He went 12.5 with slicks and 5.13 gears. Said he used to shift at 7500, how fun would that be? Screw VTech, GM was doin 7.5k in the 60s with pushrods
Personally I'd love to see something like that in the 5th gen. Just a very high-reving V8 that still offered lots of mid-end and ample low-end and put that infront of the T56 and a solid IRS. Move right away from the misconceptions that make the F platform considered low tech.
Really, I dont think the Fbody and the Vette should have the same engine though. The same generation block wouldnt is a given, but give the vette more displacement. That would give the Fbody more of a case to do a better drive train.
I might be in the minority here, but I love the Fbody's longer length. Esp on the current bodies with the sport app. package. It makes the car just look so low and sleak.
And although I should just bite my tounge, the bad 3rd gens are starting to disappear. The reason you have more 1st and 2nd gens at shows is because that is what people are restoring to show car condition, and the masses of current generation arnt old enough to be deteriatored (sp?) out of show-like condition. Unfortunally the 3rd gen remains somewhere in the middle.
The remaining nice 3rd gens are finding their way into the hands of collectors and car enthusiasts who are taking care of them though. Im the 4th owner of my car and I'll own it until I die. Im lucky that my dad has more than enough room for our cars so mine will always be under a roof, sheilded from the elements. My friends with 3rd gens (88 TA, 91 Z28, 89 IROC ... how cool? ) love theirs as much as I love mine, and all our cars are in better condition than when we bought them.
It also seems that 3rd gens are at the bottom point of their price deteriation. A nice IROC, WS6, Trans Am, Z28 will go for $6,000 or more, and a RS just like mine with similar miles (120,000) went for $5000. A teal 91 RS with 26,000 miles went for $7,000 at a local dealer.
Yep, thats about it. I like my car, you like your car(s). We all love Camaros and Firebirds though - lets not lose sight of that.
------------------
Chuck Kulchar
1991 Camaro RS LO3 A4
15.823 @ 85.84 MPH
Project sLO3: the lil big project
My dad had a 69 302 with the 4bbl and the factory headers. He went 12.5 with slicks and 5.13 gears. Said he used to shift at 7500, how fun would that be? Screw VTech, GM was doin 7.5k in the 60s with pushrods
Personally I'd love to see something like that in the 5th gen. Just a very high-reving V8 that still offered lots of mid-end and ample low-end and put that infront of the T56 and a solid IRS. Move right away from the misconceptions that make the F platform considered low tech.
Really, I dont think the Fbody and the Vette should have the same engine though. The same generation block wouldnt is a given, but give the vette more displacement. That would give the Fbody more of a case to do a better drive train.
I might be in the minority here, but I love the Fbody's longer length. Esp on the current bodies with the sport app. package. It makes the car just look so low and sleak.
And although I should just bite my tounge, the bad 3rd gens are starting to disappear. The reason you have more 1st and 2nd gens at shows is because that is what people are restoring to show car condition, and the masses of current generation arnt old enough to be deteriatored (sp?) out of show-like condition. Unfortunally the 3rd gen remains somewhere in the middle.
The remaining nice 3rd gens are finding their way into the hands of collectors and car enthusiasts who are taking care of them though. Im the 4th owner of my car and I'll own it until I die. Im lucky that my dad has more than enough room for our cars so mine will always be under a roof, sheilded from the elements. My friends with 3rd gens (88 TA, 91 Z28, 89 IROC ... how cool?
) love theirs as much as I love mine, and all our cars are in better condition than when we bought them. It also seems that 3rd gens are at the bottom point of their price deteriation. A nice IROC, WS6, Trans Am, Z28 will go for $6,000 or more, and a RS just like mine with similar miles (120,000) went for $5000. A teal 91 RS with 26,000 miles went for $7,000 at a local dealer.
Yep, thats about it. I like my car, you like your car(s). We all love Camaros and Firebirds though - lets not lose sight of that.
------------------
Chuck Kulchar
1991 Camaro RS LO3 A4
15.823 @ 85.84 MPH
Project sLO3: the lil big project
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Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
MunchE,
Maybe alittle clarification is in order.
The 1st gen 302s were under rated at "290 hp", (coincidentally, exactly the same as the BOSS 302...maybe they were having fun with us ).
It is commonly acknowledged that no Z/28 302 left the factory with less than 350 hp. Add the optional cross ram intake and 2x4 Holleys, optional cam, and optional headers and you had a 400 hp, 7200 rpm screamer, off the showroom floor (again, still rated at 290hp)....and with the Z/28 suspension and 4 wheel discs...you could actually stop and turn.
Add the right optional gearing to this combo...and you could smoke any 396SS at the strip and completely embarass it on a road course.
....that's why everyone keeps acting like the Z/28 was the top model.
As for the 427 cars...they were truly awesome...but these were RARE COPO cars.
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 13, 2002).]</font>
MunchE,
Maybe alittle clarification is in order.
The 1st gen 302s were under rated at "290 hp", (coincidentally, exactly the same as the BOSS 302...maybe they were having fun with us
).It is commonly acknowledged that no Z/28 302 left the factory with less than 350 hp. Add the optional cross ram intake and 2x4 Holleys, optional cam, and optional headers and you had a 400 hp, 7200 rpm screamer, off the showroom floor (again, still rated at 290hp)....and with the Z/28 suspension and 4 wheel discs...you could actually stop and turn.
Add the right optional gearing to this combo...and you could smoke any 396SS at the strip and completely embarass it on a road course.
....that's why everyone keeps acting like the Z/28 was the top model.
As for the 427 cars...they were truly awesome...but these were RARE COPO cars.
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 13, 2002).]</font>
MunchE.......here it is.....
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 599
From: Inland Empire, CA
Z28, thanks for at least throwing a bit of info out there on that.
I still don't think that Z28 strikes an image of a tire smoking stoplight racer to most people...
*shrug*
------------------
Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
I still don't think that Z28 strikes an image of a tire smoking stoplight racer to most people...
*shrug*
------------------
Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
Z28, thanks for at least throwing a bit of info out there on that.
I still don't think that Z28 strikes an image of a tire smoking stoplight racer to most people...
*shrug*
</font>
Z28, thanks for at least throwing a bit of info out there on that.
I still don't think that Z28 strikes an image of a tire smoking stoplight racer to most people...
*shrug*
</font>
Those that don't see it as tire smoking stoplight racer, have unfortunately been assimilated into the late 4th gen disinformation propaganda machine.
I have been sent here by a caring Camaro organization to conduct re-programing.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
And I happen to be from there also. I would've thought we and others have explained it so many times that every1 on the board would have read it a few times already?!
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 26, 2002).]
I would've thought we and others have explained it so many times that every1 on the board would have read it a few times already?![This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 26, 2002).]
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