Camaro-from the horse
07-06-2002, 09:06 AM
#31
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My problem with basing a Camaro off of a proposed Solstice is not so much size....the next Camaro needs to be smaller anyway.
Never fear, it would never be Miata sized anyway....if they could fit 2+2 seating and a V8 effectively in a Miata sized car....I would consider that a packaging miracle.
No doubt, such a platform would need to be stretched and widened to accommodate Camaro.
The smallest possible package that would incorporate all the things that we would want in a Camaro, would be a good thing. As opposed to the largest possible package....which is what we have now. Smaller would be better in every concievable scale of measure. From driving experience to styling.
My whole problem with this however, is not reduced size, it's that I don't especially want the next Camaro based off of a warmed up, cobbled up Delta platform...it needs Sigma.
All things being equal, the proposed Pontiac/Opel platform would be great.....but not if Camaro loses Sigma!
Oh, and Formula, don't be so quick to dismiss the DEW98 platform...it works pretty well and would make a worthy and tough competitor to a Sigma Camaro. (....and would completely blow away a RWD Delta Camaro
).
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 06, 2002).]
Never fear, it would never be Miata sized anyway....if they could fit 2+2 seating and a V8 effectively in a Miata sized car....I would consider that a packaging miracle.
No doubt, such a platform would need to be stretched and widened to accommodate Camaro.
The smallest possible package that would incorporate all the things that we would want in a Camaro, would be a good thing. As opposed to the largest possible package....which is what we have now. Smaller would be better in every concievable scale of measure. From driving experience to styling.
My whole problem with this however, is not reduced size, it's that I don't especially want the next Camaro based off of a warmed up, cobbled up Delta platform...it needs Sigma.
All things being equal, the proposed Pontiac/Opel platform would be great.....but not if Camaro loses Sigma!
Oh, and Formula, don't be so quick to dismiss the DEW98 platform...it works pretty well and would make a worthy and tough competitor to a Sigma Camaro. (....and would completely blow away a RWD Delta Camaro
).[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 06, 2002).]
07-06-2002, 05:29 PM
#32
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Just curious, if anyone knows. For a Solstice/Opel RWD platform to be developed, GM says it would require 200-250 thousand units anually.
The Solstice may be good for 20-30 thousand annual sales....Opel, possibly could match that.
Then, what cars would make up the remaining 150-200 thousand units per year?
Formula...any input?
The Solstice may be good for 20-30 thousand annual sales....Opel, possibly could match that.
Then, what cars would make up the remaining 150-200 thousand units per year?
Formula...any input?
07-07-2002, 09:38 PM
#36
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
My whole problem with this however, is not reduced size, it's that I don't especially want the next Camaro based off of a warmed up, cobbled up Delta platform...it needs Sigma.
All things being equal, the proposed Pontiac/Opel platform would be great.....but not if Camaro loses Sigma!
Oh, and Formula, don't be so quick to dismiss the DEW98 platform...it works pretty well and would make a worthy and tough competitor to a Sigma Camaro. (....and would completely blow away a RWD Delta Camaro).
</font>
My whole problem with this however, is not reduced size, it's that I don't especially want the next Camaro based off of a warmed up, cobbled up Delta platform...it needs Sigma.
All things being equal, the proposed Pontiac/Opel platform would be great.....but not if Camaro loses Sigma!
Oh, and Formula, don't be so quick to dismiss the DEW98 platform...it works pretty well and would make a worthy and tough competitor to a Sigma Camaro. (....and would completely blow away a RWD Delta Camaro
).</font>
07-07-2002, 09:48 PM
#37
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
The Camaro has a msucle car heritage. Quite frankly anything that associates a new car with a possible Solstice's chassis plain out stinks. Everyone inside GM knows that it is a two seater aimed at the Miata, S200 market, NOT the pony car market. I personally am all for the Solstice and a Chevy counterpart...I feel they would really have a place in the market. All I am saying is just don't call a bastardized RWD Delta car a Camaro. Ford slapped the Cougar name on what was essentially a two door Contour and what did it get them. Sales low enough that the car is dying without a replacement after 3-4 years (can't remember exactly). Camaro is like GM's third most recognizable name and hopefully they will treat it with the respect that it deserves.
That being said, me and many other people on here have stated that all 5th gen Camaro plans drawn up to this point are based on the Sigma chassis. That chassis is regarded as one of the best new RWD platforms on the road today...hand down. A new Camaro based on that will have an IRS for the first time, unheard of handling and chassis stifness, and little high tech nuggets you guys havn't even imagined. The car they are working on will literally hand any DEW-98 based Mustang its A$$ on the autocross or the drag strip. The car will also for once have a better interior layout do to the inherently better laid out Sigma chassis. I am gonna go head and say a new Camaro will come in somewhere between a Mustang and a Monte Carlo in interior room which is a vast improvement.
Far as a 15 seconD big block....I wanna know what Camaro you have driven in the last 20 years that has that. The current LS1 has recieved many awards for being so efficient and technologically advanced. That being said...looking way down the road say 2007 GM will have a new engine coming online that is supposed to change everything. Though it isn't confirmed I expect it to be a higher displacement version of the XV8 two cam in the block show engine. Why do I say this? First off I have heard many people reference in almost a mythical sense an engine that will go into GM's sports cars after 2007. The current LS1/LS6 will be going by the wayside around that time and I have recieved infomation from suppliers that GM is setting up contracts to buy a large valume of direct injection parts. Direct injection was a center-peice of the XV8, which is a big clue. Also I am starting to think that the XV8 may find its way into the architecture of GM's new Truck engines, making it the 4th gen small block we hear of.
None the less a Sigma Camaro, though larger, is a much better option than a smaller Solstice based Camaro. All of Chevy's plans now are to base it on Sigma and to assume otherwise would be conjecture. Plus we don't wanna give whoever reads this board any ideas we may regret.
Sorry for the typing...its late and the 15 second big block think kinda got me fuming.</font>
The Camaro has a msucle car heritage. Quite frankly anything that associates a new car with a possible Solstice's chassis plain out stinks. Everyone inside GM knows that it is a two seater aimed at the Miata, S200 market, NOT the pony car market. I personally am all for the Solstice and a Chevy counterpart...I feel they would really have a place in the market. All I am saying is just don't call a bastardized RWD Delta car a Camaro. Ford slapped the Cougar name on what was essentially a two door Contour and what did it get them. Sales low enough that the car is dying without a replacement after 3-4 years (can't remember exactly). Camaro is like GM's third most recognizable name and hopefully they will treat it with the respect that it deserves.
That being said, me and many other people on here have stated that all 5th gen Camaro plans drawn up to this point are based on the Sigma chassis. That chassis is regarded as one of the best new RWD platforms on the road today...hand down. A new Camaro based on that will have an IRS for the first time, unheard of handling and chassis stifness, and little high tech nuggets you guys havn't even imagined. The car they are working on will literally hand any DEW-98 based Mustang its A$$ on the autocross or the drag strip. The car will also for once have a better interior layout do to the inherently better laid out Sigma chassis. I am gonna go head and say a new Camaro will come in somewhere between a Mustang and a Monte Carlo in interior room which is a vast improvement.
Far as a 15 seconD big block....I wanna know what Camaro you have driven in the last 20 years that has that. The current LS1 has recieved many awards for being so efficient and technologically advanced. That being said...looking way down the road say 2007 GM will have a new engine coming online that is supposed to change everything. Though it isn't confirmed I expect it to be a higher displacement version of the XV8 two cam in the block show engine. Why do I say this? First off I have heard many people reference in almost a mythical sense an engine that will go into GM's sports cars after 2007. The current LS1/LS6 will be going by the wayside around that time and I have recieved infomation from suppliers that GM is setting up contracts to buy a large valume of direct injection parts. Direct injection was a center-peice of the XV8, which is a big clue. Also I am starting to think that the XV8 may find its way into the architecture of GM's new Truck engines, making it the 4th gen small block we hear of.
None the less a Sigma Camaro, though larger, is a much better option than a smaller Solstice based Camaro. All of Chevy's plans now are to base it on Sigma and to assume otherwise would be conjecture. Plus we don't wanna give whoever reads this board any ideas we may regret.
Sorry for the typing...its late and the 15 second big block think kinda got me fuming.</font>
Also, just because the Camaro has a muscle car heritage it doesn't mean that GM should continue to ignore the changing expectations people have of modern cars as GM has been doing since 3rd gen.
Finally, I wouldn't want a 5th gen to be miata sized either, but it will never be anyway. I DO want it at least a half-size smaller and lighter though.
07-07-2002, 10:43 PM
#38
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by morb|d:
sorry. how do you figure all this? are you completely dismissing the GTO? by many accounts, even on this forum, it (Delta/Omega) is quite a capable platform itself (if not being almost the same thing as Sigma as I've already suggested). I think the GTO will be a showcase of just how Delta already is. That is for those who don't put much stock in the Monaro.</font>
sorry. how do you figure all this? are you completely dismissing the GTO? by many accounts, even on this forum, it (Delta/Omega) is quite a capable platform itself (if not being almost the same thing as Sigma as I've already suggested). I think the GTO will be a showcase of just how Delta already is. That is for those who don't put much stock in the Monaro.</font>
I think you've got your Greek letters confused. Delta has nothing to do with the V-body, GM2800 or the GTO. Delta is in position to replace the J-body....as in Cavalier.
07-08-2002, 04:16 AM
#39
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
I think you've got your Greek letters confused. Delta has nothing to do with the V-body, GM2800 or the GTO. Delta is in position to replace the J-body....as in Cavalier.</font>
I think you've got your Greek letters confused. Delta has nothing to do with the V-body, GM2800 or the GTO. Delta is in position to replace the J-body....as in Cavalier.</font>
07-08-2002, 09:37 PM
#40
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In my original post no-one said anything about a Camaro sharing a platform with a Soltice. For one, the Soltace won't even be a Soltace it's just a cobled up show car that was designed to get engineers thinking about niche markets and bringing designs to reality quicker to easier adapt to the changing landscape of auto design. GM is going to build several (sporty) rear drivers as it trys to reposition itself to take advantage of a higher margin vehicle. There is no market for a $15,000 Caviler but there is a market for a $24,000 hopped up street fighter niche vehicle based on Caviler mechanicals. Same goes for all of the nameplates. There will be no Caviler/Soltice derived Camaro because it makes no sense to build off of that platform. GM will be building Chevelles, Nomads, El Caminos, and many more specialty vehicles trying to cash in on the market.
Thats it...
Thats it...
07-08-2002, 09:55 PM
#41
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by z28projects4ever:
There is no market for a $15,000 Caviler </font>
There is no market for a $15,000 Caviler </font>
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Mark
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07-08-2002, 11:47 PM
#42
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by z28projects4ever:
[B]In my original post no-one said anything about a Camaro sharing a platform with a Soltice.
]</font>
[B]In my original post no-one said anything about a Camaro sharing a platform with a Soltice.
]</font>
Frankly..this proposed platform would probably be better than what we have now. But not good enough, in my opinion.
If GM wants to take sawzalls and blowtorches to Delta in order to create a RWD platform...that's one thing...just keep the 5th gen Camaro out of the equation.
.....dreaming of a premium Sigma, 400 hp, Z/28!
07-09-2002, 03:05 PM
#43
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I'm not saying that GM isn't selling tons of Cavilers. However GM makes more money on higher margin vehicles. This is why Gm builds a bazillion SUV flavors because they are exploiting a area of auto niche that is extremely popular and lucrative. The Caviler is stripped down to the bones in price point. Remember just because GM builds alot of something does not mean that they make lots of money off of it. GM can charge a premium for cars like the GTO and Vette. GM can easily brand manage a Camaro. The next generation of GTO will see to that. Think of the current gen of GTO as the Catera while the real deal CTS is waiting in the wings. It is quite possible that GM will band-aid the Camaro gap with a stripped down RWD product X with a Camaro badge on it. While product X is circulating and guaging public reaction for the nameplate and configuration Gm will give you the car you want. I would expect though a next gen Camaro to be a stop gap to fill out the line. The question is where is the gap filler and what can easily be configuired to fill that gap. The answer the platform the Monte Carlo was heading to. RWD 5.3L V-8 maybe a shorter version of a Monte Carlo with a sportier look. This makes sense...you'll see. This is what will be at NAIAS. I expect people will be pissed at the retro look but in the end a better Camaro will be created for the demographics that buy Camaros. Those who will expect lowtec in the next Gen Camaro are going to be disappointed, the Camaro needs to be a poor man's Vette.
07-09-2002, 04:21 PM
#44
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i have to say you guys would make very good politicains lol j/k you all have a good debate going on,but one i hate to say might be in vain i sure hope not! the guys talking about a smaller camaro no way ive had 3 camaros 2 3rd gens and my current 4th gen the forth gen has less interior room i think for one my legs arnt real comfortable if i drive more then an hour one thing i think gm needs to work on is atleast think of taller people half of these dam cars you see i have trouble getting in and driving (not camaros)im 6'2" i needed a shoe horn and a can of pam to get into a miata and then i couldnt even bring my leg up to hit the gas so smaller camaro would mean i wouldnt buy it,,my other thoughts are they should kill fords ideas about them comparing the cobra to the vette,the vette needs to go to a higher level when the c6 comes out like viper killing proformance that is what the vette should be rivals with not a dam mustang and if there is a 5th gen it needs to be at the level and proformance of the vette now to kill fords dreams IMO chevy can do this but i dont think they will because i think they are scared to take chances ,ford and dodge are taking chances and it is selling why doesnt chevy? please dont say gto to me either i want a new camaro or i will just keep the one i have and save my money
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97 Z28 t top a4 kenwood cd, alpine super tweeters 2 pair 6 1/2component speakers 4" alpines,v 12 alpine amp,jl 2 rockford xlc 12" sub,jl 500/1 amp,sticky tires,slp cai,tb bypass and air foil,hotchkis stb,jet chip stage 2 (removed do to powerloss )module ,flow master exhaust,cross drilled rotors,and auto optics headlight conversion
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97 Z28 t top a4 kenwood cd, alpine super tweeters 2 pair 6 1/2component speakers 4" alpines,v 12 alpine amp,jl 2 rockford xlc 12" sub,jl 500/1 amp,sticky tires,slp cai,tb bypass and air foil,hotchkis stb,jet chip stage 2 (removed do to powerloss )module ,flow master exhaust,cross drilled rotors,and auto optics headlight conversion
07-09-2002, 06:57 PM
#45
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No no -- the lack of interior room is due to a poor and out-of-date design. Go sit in an RS-X sometime... just about the same amount of room (maybe more!) and in a MUCH smaller package! If it went almost that small it'd do great.