Camaro-from the horse
07-03-2002, 11:35 AM
#16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
My informants have also told me that the Solstice may be a threat to Camaro.
Don't get me wrong...I love the Solstice...but if it's approval means that the next Camaro will ride on a rehashed Delta platform....then, the Solstice MUST GO!!!!
Sigma or better for the Camaro, is all I will accept!</font>
My informants have also told me that the Solstice may be a threat to Camaro.
Don't get me wrong...I love the Solstice...but if it's approval means that the next Camaro will ride on a rehashed Delta platform....then, the Solstice MUST GO!!!!
Sigma or better for the Camaro, is all I will accept!</font>
Nothing says homosexual like a miata like Camaro
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07-03-2002, 01:55 PM
#17
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And all this business about Sigma being too good or too expensive for Camaro.....sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
Nissan's FM platform which is probably more sophisticated and more expensive than Sigma can be had on the 350Z for under $27k. It is also used on the Infiniti G35 and Skyline by the way.
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 09, 2002).]
Nissan's FM platform which is probably more sophisticated and more expensive than Sigma can be had on the 350Z for under $27k. It is also used on the Infiniti G35 and Skyline by the way.
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited July 09, 2002).]
07-03-2002, 02:11 PM
#18
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We really need to stop comparing what it costs to bring an American car to market vs. what it costs to do a foreign car.
Their labor costs are MUCH lower than ours and their "legacy" costs are probably just about nil. The exact opposite is true of the American car manufacturers.
Their labor costs are MUCH lower than ours and their "legacy" costs are probably just about nil. The exact opposite is true of the American car manufacturers.
07-03-2002, 02:19 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
We really need to stop comparing what it costs to bring an American car to market vs. what it costs to do a foreign car.
Their labor costs are MUCH lower than ours and their "legacy" costs are probably just about nil. The exact opposite is true of the American car manufacturers.</font>
We really need to stop comparing what it costs to bring an American car to market vs. what it costs to do a foreign car.
Their labor costs are MUCH lower than ours and their "legacy" costs are probably just about nil. The exact opposite is true of the American car manufacturers.</font>
True, we may have higher "legacy" cost...but we also have lower cost for taxes, raw material, transportation, energy, etc.
We are in a world economy. Comparing US platform costs with foreign companies is not only fair, but a business requirement.
07-03-2002, 05:47 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
I don't buy that! To accept that is to say US industry cannot compete...and less desirable US products are acceptible. NO WAY!
True, we may have higher "legacy" cost...but we also have lower cost for taxes, raw material, transportation, energy, etc.
We are in a world economy. Comparing US platform costs with foreign companies is not only fair, but a business requirement.
</font>
I don't buy that! To accept that is to say US industry cannot compete...and less desirable US products are acceptible. NO WAY!
True, we may have higher "legacy" cost...but we also have lower cost for taxes, raw material, transportation, energy, etc.
We are in a world economy. Comparing US platform costs with foreign companies is not only fair, but a business requirement.
</font>
[This message has been edited by formula79 (edited July 03, 2002).]
07-03-2002, 06:13 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cmc:
What do you know about the Solstice actually being based on a J-body/Delta bastardization, anyway? I thought that GM was seeking to develop a new platform with Opel for compact RWD cars, not seeking to throw a bunch of Junk-body and TrailBlazer parts together to make a RWD chassis.</font>
What do you know about the Solstice actually being based on a J-body/Delta bastardization, anyway? I thought that GM was seeking to develop a new platform with Opel for compact RWD cars, not seeking to throw a bunch of Junk-body and TrailBlazer parts together to make a RWD chassis.</font>
One view of this proposed Pontiac/Opel platform would take the Delta platform....retain it's front McPherson strut suspension and add the Versatrac rear suspension and differential on the Delta floorplan. This would be very similar to how the J-car based Solstice concept was created.
And if GM is forced to buy FIAT in 2004...as most analysts are predicting...maybe some RWD Alfas could be built off this platform.
I'd be all for it...as long as Camaro is not forced to be a platform mate.
07-04-2002, 08:19 AM
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Z284ever,
If you don't buy that, then you should pick up any buisiness mag and read what it costs am American company to bring a car to market and then to build it vs. the same for a foreign company.
Remember, we have highly paid unionized labor and extremely good benefits (including pensions) that the foreigners don't. The money for that has to come from somewhere.
And I think that ALL costs associated with building a car are cheaper outside the US. That's why the Big 3 have been sourcing more and more parts from outside the US over the years. To lower costs.
If you don't buy that, then you should pick up any buisiness mag and read what it costs am American company to bring a car to market and then to build it vs. the same for a foreign company.
Remember, we have highly paid unionized labor and extremely good benefits (including pensions) that the foreigners don't. The money for that has to come from somewhere.
And I think that ALL costs associated with building a car are cheaper outside the US. That's why the Big 3 have been sourcing more and more parts from outside the US over the years. To lower costs.
07-04-2002, 12:10 PM
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HuJass,
Being an employer I am painfully aware that we have high labor/benefits costs here..( I believe they are quite a bit higher for auto workers in Germany though...4 day work week and 6 weeks vacation ).
But the implication of that statement suggests that we should be willing to settle for less..automotively, because someones' pension needs funding. That is that part that gets me nervous....and is unacceptable to me.
...and since the GTO is made overseas...why doesn't it cost $18K?
Being an employer I am painfully aware that we have high labor/benefits costs here..( I believe they are quite a bit higher for auto workers in Germany though...4 day work week and 6 weeks vacation ).
But the implication of that statement suggests that we should be willing to settle for less..automotively, because someones' pension needs funding. That is that part that gets me nervous....and is unacceptable to me.
...and since the GTO is made overseas...why doesn't it cost $18K?
07-04-2002, 09:50 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cmc:
No, we don't need a car as big as the current Camaro! Most family sedans are about that size or smaller!
A stretched/widened Solstice chasis, provided it remains rear-wheel drive and has independant suspension, might do well for a Camaro.</font>
No, we don't need a car as big as the current Camaro! Most family sedans are about that size or smaller!
A stretched/widened Solstice chasis, provided it remains rear-wheel drive and has independant suspension, might do well for a Camaro.</font>
We've all been over this before, you're exactly right. The Camaro shouldn't be Miata sized. It should be V8 powered and rear wheel drive, but Camaro "heritage" does not mean "virtually the biggest car in the Chevrolet lineup on the outside but rated subcompact for teensy tinesy interior" how many cars the size of the current Camaro are rated sub-compact?
07-04-2002, 11:16 PM
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Z,
No,no,no. I'm sorry that it seemed like I implied that. I didn't mean to. I don't think we should settle for less. I just don't see a good solution. Besides cutting workers pay and/or benefits, which would be dangerous. Unless we stop the madness of paying the board members multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses. Can that ever happen? I don't know.
I work for one of the Big Three. We have a project that illustrates the problems and inequalities of American vs. foreign automakers. I really don't want to talk about it here because I like my job.
No,no,no. I'm sorry that it seemed like I implied that. I didn't mean to. I don't think we should settle for less. I just don't see a good solution. Besides cutting workers pay and/or benefits, which would be dangerous. Unless we stop the madness of paying the board members multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses. Can that ever happen? I don't know.
I work for one of the Big Three. We have a project that illustrates the problems and inequalities of American vs. foreign automakers. I really don't want to talk about it here because I like my job.
07-04-2002, 11:53 PM
#26
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eric77TA:
Camaro "heritage" does not mean "virtually the biggest car in the Chevrolet lineup on the outside but rated subcompact for teensy tinesy interior" how many cars the size of the current Camaro are rated sub-compact?</font>
Camaro "heritage" does not mean "virtually the biggest car in the Chevrolet lineup on the outside but rated subcompact for teensy tinesy interior" how many cars the size of the current Camaro are rated sub-compact?</font>
After August 2002...I believe the correct answer would be........ZERO.
07-05-2002, 04:06 PM
#27
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AFter reading these comments, My 2 cents are,.. I hope there is a concept car at 2003 show but wont hold my breath , and I definatly do not want a Smaller Camaro.. the size it is now is perfect for me ,, I dont like having the motor so far under cowl but I can live with working on it as it is but not smaller no mitia or z3 size cars,... I like having the back seat even if it is just of kids, adults can ride back there on short trips just fine and I like the hatch space weather for golf clubs or a sound system.. I look forward to the next generation when it comes ,but not if its a micro car
07-05-2002, 06:45 PM
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from reading this thread i've gathered that the old timers or "old times" forvorers want a camaro to be a)a heavy pig that will not turn, b)remain huge on the outside/tiny on the inside, c)have a cast iron BB with all the fixin's, d)go 15secs in the quarter mile, e)generally have as much yestertech and as little newertech as possible.
yay for progress!
guys, if you want all those things, you don't need to wait for a brand new camaro to come out to enjoy them. just contect your neighboring redneck and ask him for a sale.
i'd like a new camaro to be as light as possible, have a suspention wich is both sporting and complient, have a powerful engine, have back seats that don't require the person to fold in half to be able to sit in them, and most of all it must be fun to DRIVE, meaning it should make me feel as much a part of the machine as possible. then again, we could just look back to the 1960's and point to every NEW GM made sports car and yell murder because its not a carbon copy of the 40+ year old car who's name it is wearing.
progress guys. progress.
yay for progress!
guys, if you want all those things, you don't need to wait for a brand new camaro to come out to enjoy them. just contect your neighboring redneck and ask him for a sale.
i'd like a new camaro to be as light as possible, have a suspention wich is both sporting and complient, have a powerful engine, have back seats that don't require the person to fold in half to be able to sit in them, and most of all it must be fun to DRIVE, meaning it should make me feel as much a part of the machine as possible. then again, we could just look back to the 1960's and point to every NEW GM made sports car and yell murder because its not a carbon copy of the 40+ year old car who's name it is wearing.
progress guys. progress.
07-06-2002, 02:50 AM
#29
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by morb|d:
from reading this thread i've gathered that the old timers or "old times" forvorers want a camaro to be a)a heavy pig that will not turn, b)remain huge on the outside/tiny on the inside, c)have a cast iron BB with all the fixin's, d)go 15secs in the quarter mile, e)generally have as much yestertech and as little newertech as possible.
yay for progress!
guys, if you want all those things, you don't need to wait for a brand new camaro to come out to enjoy them. just contect your neighboring redneck and ask him for a sale.
i'd like a new camaro to be as light as possible, have a suspention wich is both sporting and complient, have a powerful engine, have back seats that don't require the person to fold in half to be able to sit in them, and most of all it must be fun to DRIVE, meaning it should make me feel as much a part of the machine as possible. then again, we could just look back to the 1960's and point to every NEW GM made sports car and yell murder because its not a carbon copy of the 40+ year old car who's name it is wearing.
progress guys. progress.</font>
from reading this thread i've gathered that the old timers or "old times" forvorers want a camaro to be a)a heavy pig that will not turn, b)remain huge on the outside/tiny on the inside, c)have a cast iron BB with all the fixin's, d)go 15secs in the quarter mile, e)generally have as much yestertech and as little newertech as possible.
yay for progress!
guys, if you want all those things, you don't need to wait for a brand new camaro to come out to enjoy them. just contect your neighboring redneck and ask him for a sale.
i'd like a new camaro to be as light as possible, have a suspention wich is both sporting and complient, have a powerful engine, have back seats that don't require the person to fold in half to be able to sit in them, and most of all it must be fun to DRIVE, meaning it should make me feel as much a part of the machine as possible. then again, we could just look back to the 1960's and point to every NEW GM made sports car and yell murder because its not a carbon copy of the 40+ year old car who's name it is wearing.
progress guys. progress.</font>
The Camaro has a msucle car heritage. Quite frankly anything that associates a new car with a possible Solstice's chassis plain out stinks. Everyone inside GM knows that it is a two seater aimed at the Miata, S200 market, NOT the pony car market. I personally am all for the Solstice and a Chevy counterpart...I feel they would really have a place in the market. All I am saying is just don't call a bastardized RWD Delta car a Camaro. Ford slapped the Cougar name on what was essentially a two door Contour and what did it get them. Sales low enough that the car is dying without a replacement after 3-4 years (can't remember exactly). Camaro is like GM's third most recognizable name and hopefully they will treat it with the respect that it deserves.
That being said, me and many other people on here have stated that all 5th gen Camaro plans drawn up to this point are based on the Sigma chassis. That chassis is regarded as one of the best new RWD platforms on the road today...hand down. A new Camaro based on that will have an IRS for the first time, unheard of handling and chassis stifness, and little high tech nuggets you guys havn't even imagined. The car they are working on will literally hand any DEW-98 based Mustang its A$$ on the autocross or the drag strip. The car will also for once have a better interior layout do to the inherently better laid out Sigma chassis. I am gonna go head and say a new Camaro will come in somewhere between a Mustang and a Monte Carlo in interior room which is a vast improvement.
Far as a 15 seconD big block....I wanna know what Camaro you have driven in the last 20 years that has that. The current LS1 has recieved many awards for being so efficient and technologically advanced. That being said...looking way down the road say 2007 GM will have a new engine coming online that is supposed to change everything. Though it isn't confirmed I expect it to be a higher displacement version of the XV8 two cam in the block show engine. Why do I say this? First off I have heard many people reference in almost a mythical sense an engine that will go into GM's sports cars after 2007. The current LS1/LS6 will be going by the wayside around that time and I have recieved infomation from suppliers that GM is setting up contracts to buy a large valume of direct injection parts. Direct injection was a center-peice of the XV8, which is a big clue. Also I am starting to think that the XV8 may find its way into the architecture of GM's new Truck engines, making it the 4th gen small block we hear of.
None the less a Sigma Camaro, though larger, is a much better option than a smaller Solstice based Camaro. All of Chevy's plans now are to base it on Sigma and to assume otherwise would be conjecture. Plus we don't wanna give whoever reads this board any ideas we may regret.
Sorry for the typing...its late and the 15 second big block think kinda got me fuming.------------------
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07-06-2002, 04:00 AM
#30
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I'm not really so interested in the Solstice thing as you might have people believe. I was just considering the possibility that the Opel/Pontiac venture might yield a platform that would lend itself to handling mini sports car duty as well as being modified (or having another platform based on it) to handle midsize high-power touring coupe duty. And that's only secondary to no Sigma or related platform, of course! Don't think I want a Camaro to sit on top of any kind of J-body parts.
Anyway, I also don't believe the number of people who like the size of the current Camaro is that high. Most people here know the Camaro is quite capable of handling, and that that was by design.
So here's to Guion's V-chassis/Sigma-rear platform (though let's hope we get something a little smaller than the CTS on it...)
Anyway, I also don't believe the number of people who like the size of the current Camaro is that high. Most people here know the Camaro is quite capable of handling, and that that was by design.
So here's to Guion's V-chassis/Sigma-rear platform (though let's hope we get something a little smaller than the CTS on it...)