More importantly, all of the 2010 Track Pack's goodies are standard equipment on the 2011 GT.

 

Oh, I don't know...there are plenty of helpful nuggets we can glean from the wildly successful 3rd gen...

1) Deliver a car several hundred pounds lighter and much smaller than the car it replaces.

2) Deliver FAR better handling than the car it replaces.

3) Deliver a car which people other than 45-55 year old males want to buy.

4) Deliver a car with a base 4 cylinder for great fuel economy.

 

hard to say with regard to a new car purchase available today. I was more referring to the comparison to the 4th gen, and it's torpedo feel.

you got me there! However, my GTO is still very comfortable and docile under normal driving conditions. Stomp on the loud pedal, and that changes a bit.

 

Yeah, I think we'd like those aspects for sure....but in a package that's more "with the times" - that is, something with a more upright seating position, more comfortable, rides decent, etc.

 

Boy has this thread grown a life of is own. I thought the discussion was on Alpha.

 

How is something with an upright seating position, more comfortable, and rides decent being "with the times"

Pardon my exotic talk, but do you think Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche give a damn about seating position?

I'm not saying that my 4th Gen is better than the 5th Gen, but the driving experience is completely different. I, personally, feel more connected with the road in my 4th Gen than I did driving the 5th Gen.

I understand that people want to go fast in a straight line from Tree to Traps, from stoplight to stoplight, or whatever, but when you live where I live you want something more.

Google Maps California Hwy 1. My 4th gen LOVES cornering and while it's not the best at giving the rear tire information to the driver it's leagues ahead of the 5th gen.

If Alpha means Smaller/Lighter Camaro then so be it. I'm interested.

I have absolutely NO intention of purchasing the Camaro in it's current form. Its bloated exterior does not match the cramped interior of that car. This statement coming from someone that's only 5'7". The performance of the LS3 is LIMITED by that cars weight.

If people want an upright seated, comfortable car, then why are they looking at a sports car?

I've driven my Z28 half-way across the country a few times, even with 3 people in the car. I didn't complain about any discomfort because I knew I was in a sports car. That's what Motrin is for

 

Well now hang on, how does Camaro in any way compete with Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche? Does Ferrari's business case depend on selling in the six figure per year range at a modest price?

I'm not suggesting Camaro feel like a Malibu or something. I'm saying that there ARE certain traits about the 5th Gen (like a more upright and comfortable seating position than, say, the "pour yourself in, lay down, butt-on-the-floor and drive" 4th Gen) that should be present in Alpha. That doesn't at all affect things like weight, or handling, or overall chassis feel, or the ability to carve up CA Hwy 1.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Mustang and its more "general public-friendly" layout outsold the 4th Gen, even though it was woefully outgunned at times? Of course not. I love my 4th Gen too, but I understand that as time goes by less people are interested in a generally uncomfortable sports car that Chevy has to mass produce and make money on.

 

Exactly what I was trying to portray earlier with my 'hardcore/crude' rant....very well put!

 

It's amazing to me what we get here, anything from the "Change nothing about the 5th Gen, it's God's gift to sportscardom" crowd to the militant performance crowd that sees Camaro as a Porsche competitor at a Chevy price ( ).

I want something in the middle. I want a reasonably comfortable car for this class that is as light as possible and carves up roads. A good seating position and the ability to see out of it doesn't take anything away from its performance or "feel" attributes - in fact, those things help to enhance the experience. This is what I am hoping Alpha brings us - a smaller exterior, a lighter car with crisper handling than a large sedan like a Zeta car can offer. It should feel nimble and eager to toss around. One driver review of Camaro describing the car as "bloated" or "lazy" is too many. But it still needs to be relatively easy to live with, appealing to as wide a range of sports coupe buyers possible. This is what Camaro should be (IMHO of course ).

 

Right on! A drop dead gorgeous, easy to live with, joy to drive coupe. Build it and they will come.

 

Wimp! My 2WD Tahoe handles the corners of Hwy 1 just fine!

Although the way I drive, the double yellow is merely a suggestion.

 

Unless 'large sedan' encompasses all sedans of 190" or more in length, Zeta is not a large sedan -- at least not the Commodore. The long wheelbase variants might be.

I think of compact as 175" to 185". Medium 185" - 197" (5.0 meters). Large is above that. The Zeta is at the large end of medium. If the Zeta is a large sedan and a BMW 3 is a compact sedan, then 'medium' sedan is squeezed to essentially a tiny size range, and large opens up to a huge range.

BMW and Mercedes kind of define 'compact', 'medium', and 'large' with their 3/C, 5/E, and 7/S series. The standard Zeta is much closer to the 5/E in size than it is to the 7/S.

I think 'large' fits Charlie's rhetorical needs, but is not accurate.

What you guys really want is a Camaro based on a compact RWD sedan, not one based on a medium sedan (at the large end of medium). That point is taken.

 

What a strange comment.

I think 'not large' fits Jeremy's rhetorical needs, but is not accurate.

 

It's all part of your rhetorical arsenal used to make the Zeta seem totally inappropriate, when it really isn't. It's not optimal for corner-carver, but the resulting car is only a little heavier than it might have been with an optimal starting point. The rest comes from decisions made after Zeta was selected that ended up making the car heavier (extended dash to axle, 20" wheels). I believe that GM could have started with Zeta and made a car more to your liking. It wouldn't have had the same styling, and it might have cost a little more (but maybe not). The tiny windows, small interior, and IP had nothing to do with Zeta roots.

I'll also second formula79's caution. The expectations being laid on Alpha are very high.


Very original.
Look. A 7 series is a large car. So is an S-class. They weigh 4500+ pounds. An E-class is midsize. If you want to call it large, then the C is midsize, and so will be Alpha. In which case, you want the Camaro to be based on a midsize car instead of large. Whatever the case, I've made my point.

 

That statement is of huge significance. What are people basing their ideals on for Alpha? Hope? Current yardsticks? Innuendo?

People want GM to deliver a BMW 3-series competitor that not even BMW themselves are able to deliver.