Alpha: All things to all enthusiasts.
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From: Chicagoland IL
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Everyone here talks about Zeta like it's a complete turd.
Lets put things into perspective here.
a.) 5th Gen Camaro is selling at a clip never imagined. By in large, customers love the car. If your in the business of selling cars, 5th gen is not a failure.
b.) In G8 form, Zeta was called by various publications..the "best sedan for the money in the world", and often compared to BMW. GM has trouble getting Cadillac to compare to BMW..so that is huge.
c.) Zeta is gonna be around for a while, and at some point will have to lose weight. Even big boned people can lose weight.
d.) If Alpha is being designed for Cadillac, and Camaro it has baked in will be incidental. It will be designed to fit Cadillac's needs, and then somehow rejiggered to fit into what the Camaro needs. I think this will happen later rather than sooner..just because I think this platform will cost more than people are expecting.
Now I know Charlie has a fetish for Cadillac's, light cars, and Camaro's, so it makes sense for him to try and make Alpha fit all three bills. Based on what I have seen over time however...and common sense..something tells me that either price, weight, or flexibility will have to be compromise on this platform. This is not Theda, where you take a cheapo cute ute, and add a bunch of gadgets on top to make an SRX. This is building a serious sports sedan platform that can run with the best the Germans can make for Cadillac...and then somehow also making it fit into a 24K Chevy without compromising anything.
Lets put things into perspective here.
a.) 5th Gen Camaro is selling at a clip never imagined. By in large, customers love the car. If your in the business of selling cars, 5th gen is not a failure.
b.) In G8 form, Zeta was called by various publications..the "best sedan for the money in the world", and often compared to BMW. GM has trouble getting Cadillac to compare to BMW..so that is huge.
c.) Zeta is gonna be around for a while, and at some point will have to lose weight. Even big boned people can lose weight.
d.) If Alpha is being designed for Cadillac, and Camaro it has baked in will be incidental. It will be designed to fit Cadillac's needs, and then somehow rejiggered to fit into what the Camaro needs. I think this will happen later rather than sooner..just because I think this platform will cost more than people are expecting.
Now I know Charlie has a fetish for Cadillac's, light cars, and Camaro's, so it makes sense for him to try and make Alpha fit all three bills. Based on what I have seen over time however...and common sense..something tells me that either price, weight, or flexibility will have to be compromise on this platform. This is not Theda, where you take a cheapo cute ute, and add a bunch of gadgets on top to make an SRX. This is building a serious sports sedan platform that can run with the best the Germans can make for Cadillac...and then somehow also making it fit into a 24K Chevy without compromising anything.
Anyway, IL have these things to say about the 2010 Camaro in comparison to the ’11 ‘Stang…
The Big Pedal on the Right
There are those who will judge this match purely on drag strip performance. OK, fine. The Camaro SS is still quicker than the Mustang GT. But not by much.
The Mustang may not pack the Camaro's visual firepower, but it's an easy car with which to live.
On the quarter-mile at Auto Club Speedway in lush, park like Fontana, California, IL's long-term Camaro SS whomped to 60 mph from a standstill in just 5.1 seconds with the traction control turned off (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip). The full quarter-mile went by in 13.1 seconds at 110.4 mph.
Our red Mustang GT (on all-season Pirelli P Zero Nero tires) matched the Camaro SS's blast to 60 mph by hitting that speed in an identical 5.1 seconds from a standstill with the traction control turned off (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout). But the quarter-mile took another two-tenths to complete with a slightly lower trap speed, 13.3 seconds at 107.3 mph.
That's a razor-thin advantage for the Camaro and, just to throw in some additional ambiguity, we also tested another Mustang GT (this one in blue and wearing summer tires), which ripped to 60 mph in 4.8 seconds and blitzed the 1,320 feet in 13 seconds at 110.6 mph. That's the kind of razor's edge that can be measured in microns.
Yeah, the straight-line performance is agonizingly close (and apparently varies car to car), but that doesn't mean the power plants of the Camaro SS and Mustang GT are clones of each other. With its advantage of 1.2 liters in displacement and old-school pushrod valvetrain, the Camaro's 6.2-liter LS3 V8 makes big chunks of torque down low in its power band (it peaks at 420 pound-feet at 4,600 rpm, but also makes plenty right off idle), and then pulls strong until it starves for air near its 6,400-rpm redline. It's a throwback engine with great bottom-end grunt and a pretty good top end.
In contrast, the Mustang GT's 5.0-liter V8 puts its deep-breathing 32 valves controlled by dual overhead cams and variable valve timing to work, starting off a bit soft at the bottom end (all its 390 lb-ft of torque aren't available until 4,250 rpm), then pulls mightily through the midrange until it's screaming at its 7,000-rpm redline. This is a 21st-century V8, combining pretty good bottom-end thrust with a great top-end thrill zone.
Picking Ponies
The numbers say the 2011 Mustang GT squeaks out a thin win in this comparison test. But it's a win based mostly on the personal preferences of the testers. Slot some guys in with different taste — who value ride quality and deep torque wells over quick reflexes and a zinging power plant — and the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS wins. It's that close. And they're that good.
Both do their legends proud. But right now, it's the Mustang legend that gets rubbed with the better polish.
http://www.insideline.com/2011-ford-mustang.html
There are those who will judge this match purely on drag strip performance. OK, fine. The Camaro SS is still quicker than the Mustang GT. But not by much.
The Mustang may not pack the Camaro's visual firepower, but it's an easy car with which to live.
On the quarter-mile at Auto Club Speedway in lush, park like Fontana, California, IL's long-term Camaro SS whomped to 60 mph from a standstill in just 5.1 seconds with the traction control turned off (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip). The full quarter-mile went by in 13.1 seconds at 110.4 mph.
Our red Mustang GT (on all-season Pirelli P Zero Nero tires) matched the Camaro SS's blast to 60 mph by hitting that speed in an identical 5.1 seconds from a standstill with the traction control turned off (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout). But the quarter-mile took another two-tenths to complete with a slightly lower trap speed, 13.3 seconds at 107.3 mph.
That's a razor-thin advantage for the Camaro and, just to throw in some additional ambiguity, we also tested another Mustang GT (this one in blue and wearing summer tires), which ripped to 60 mph in 4.8 seconds and blitzed the 1,320 feet in 13 seconds at 110.6 mph. That's the kind of razor's edge that can be measured in microns.
Yeah, the straight-line performance is agonizingly close (and apparently varies car to car), but that doesn't mean the power plants of the Camaro SS and Mustang GT are clones of each other. With its advantage of 1.2 liters in displacement and old-school pushrod valvetrain, the Camaro's 6.2-liter LS3 V8 makes big chunks of torque down low in its power band (it peaks at 420 pound-feet at 4,600 rpm, but also makes plenty right off idle), and then pulls strong until it starves for air near its 6,400-rpm redline. It's a throwback engine with great bottom-end grunt and a pretty good top end.
In contrast, the Mustang GT's 5.0-liter V8 puts its deep-breathing 32 valves controlled by dual overhead cams and variable valve timing to work, starting off a bit soft at the bottom end (all its 390 lb-ft of torque aren't available until 4,250 rpm), then pulls mightily through the midrange until it's screaming at its 7,000-rpm redline. This is a 21st-century V8, combining pretty good bottom-end thrust with a great top-end thrill zone.
Picking Ponies
The numbers say the 2011 Mustang GT squeaks out a thin win in this comparison test. But it's a win based mostly on the personal preferences of the testers. Slot some guys in with different taste — who value ride quality and deep torque wells over quick reflexes and a zinging power plant — and the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS wins. It's that close. And they're that good.
Both do their legends proud. But right now, it's the Mustang legend that gets rubbed with the better polish.
http://www.insideline.com/2011-ford-mustang.html
Handling
Vehicle Score Rank
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS 8.5 1
2011 Ford Mustang GT 8.0 2
Vehicle Score Rank
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS 8.5 1
2011 Ford Mustang GT 8.0 2
And some resident experts were claiming the 2011 Mustang would beat Camaro in every measure! I wait for a test on an open circuit!
Last edited by SSbaby; Apr 26, 2010 at 07:50 PM.
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Is the 5th Gen a failure in a business sense? No. Bottom dollar to GM is about making money.
To a car enthusiast the 5th gen is a pig.
Originally Posted by forumla79
b.) In G8 form, Zeta was called by various publications..the "best sedan for the money in the world", and often compared to BMW. GM has trouble getting Cadillac to compare to BMW..so that is huge.
There's a guy in the lounge that recently traded his G8 in on an S4 because of build quality.
I LIKE the G8, but even if I had the money I wouldn't purchase one.
Originally Posted by formula79
c.) Zeta is gonna be around for a while, and at some point will have to lose weight. Even big boned people can lose weight.
d.) If Alpha is being designed for Cadillac, and Camaro it has baked in will be incidental. It will be designed to fit Cadillac's needs, and then somehow rejiggered to fit into what the Camaro needs. I think this will happen later rather than sooner..just because I think this platform will cost more than people are expecting.
d.) If Alpha is being designed for Cadillac, and Camaro it has baked in will be incidental. It will be designed to fit Cadillac's needs, and then somehow rejiggered to fit into what the Camaro needs. I think this will happen later rather than sooner..just because I think this platform will cost more than people are expecting.
I understand the every man's, "I used to have a 60s muscle car, and this 2010 looks the part."
But I'm 28 and I want a car that performs. Not some daily driver that looks cool.
Last edited by Melee Penguin; Apr 26, 2010 at 08:40 PM.
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Never a truer comment spoken on this forum. I think some people still remember some tester describing the Zeta Camaro as a “pig” and have run with that prognosis.
Anyway, IL have these things to say about the 2010 Camaro in comparison to the ’11 ‘Stang…
And...
Zeta Camaro is hardly a pig in this context, hey?
And some resident experts were claiming the 2011 Mustang would beat Camaro in every measure! I wait for a test on an open circuit!
Anyway, IL have these things to say about the 2010 Camaro in comparison to the ’11 ‘Stang…
And...
Zeta Camaro is hardly a pig in this context, hey?
And some resident experts were claiming the 2011 Mustang would beat Camaro in every measure! I wait for a test on an open circuit!
And both are still too heavy for my tastes. One a bit more than the other, but both none-the-less.
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From: Melbourne, Australia
I'm sure you did note the all-season tires vs the summer tires. I'm no handling expert, but surely it would have been a bit more accurate comparison if they had used similar tires.
And both are still too heavy for my tastes. One a bit more than the other, but both none-the-less.
And both are still too heavy for my tastes. One a bit more than the other, but both none-the-less.
The handling discussions of the past were not about tires, though, they seemed to focus on (Camaro's) weight handicap. This is the first time any mention of tires has been brought up to explain the handling anomaly.
But, it's horses for courses because no non-track pack Mustang ever shows up for a duel with Camaro. So, is it ever a 'fair' comparison?
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From: Santa Clara, CA
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The S4 should have better build quality, as should a Cadillac.
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Is the 5th Gen a failure in a business sense? No. Bottom dollar to GM is about making money.
To a car enthusiast the 5th gen is a pig.
To a car enthusiast the 5th gen is a pig.
Yes, the G8 was such a great car that it's...well it's not here any longer. Coupled with the fact that it's having the same problems that the GTO had with brakes/shocks and what not.
There's a guy in the lounge that recently traded his G8 in on an S4 because of build quality.
I LIKE the G8, but even if I had the money I wouldn't purchase one.
There's a guy in the lounge that recently traded his G8 in on an S4 because of build quality.
I LIKE the G8, but even if I had the money I wouldn't purchase one.
I'd like to turn the wheels back in time to when the Cadillac Catera was dumbed down just fine to fit a cheap Opel across the pond. Exactly how CAN'T the same be applied for a lighter sportier Camaro?
I understand the every man's, "I used to have a 60s muscle car, and this 2010 looks the part."
But I'm 28 and I want a car that performs. Not some daily driver that looks cool.
But I'm 28 and I want a car that performs. Not some daily driver that looks cool.
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Have you even driven a Camaro before? I am sorry...but if you drive a 426 HP Camaro and come back thinking it's a pig daily driver you need to have something checked. Camaro is not as light as a Mustang..but it is better in other ways. If you want what a Mustang offers, then damn it..buy one and stop whining about a Camaro you have no intentions of buying.
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From: Bay Area, CA
GM would still have the G8 here if they had their choice. Matter of fact, it was basically said that they wanted to keep Pontiac around, but could not do it for on worthwhile car (the G8). G8 may have a few quality issues..but dynamically, it was as close to a BMW as anything sold by a US marquee. My point is that Zeta has the ability to run with the best. I suspect however some in Detroit have "not made here" syndrome and can't stand it.
Originally Posted by formula79
Have you even driven a Camaro before? I am sorry...but if you drive a 426 HP Camaro and come back thinking it's a pig daily driver you need to have something checked. Camaro is not as light as a Mustang..but it is better in other ways. If you want what a Mustang offers, then damn it..buy one and stop whining about a Camaro you have no intentions of buying.
A stock Z28 feels fast, sporty, and sure it's not exactly comfortable near the limit, but it's a great drive.
A 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro is literally just building upon a car that I'm already comfortable driving.
The 2010 SS is NOT as fun to drive as a 4th Gen. Sorry, the experience is just NOT there.
Which is exactly why the 135i is on my list. It's literally close to the experience that I get in MY Camaro with better driving characteristics. I want a car that performs that is enjoyable to drive.
Being a fan of the Camaro, I WANT that car from GM, but screw em while they have their thumb up their butts.
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A stock Z28 feels fast, sporty, and sure it's not exactly comfortable near the limit, but it's a great drive.
A 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro is literally just building upon a car that I'm already comfortable driving.
The 2010 SS is NOT as fun to drive as a 4th Gen. Sorry, the experience is just NOT there.
A 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro is literally just building upon a car that I'm already comfortable driving.
The 2010 SS is NOT as fun to drive as a 4th Gen. Sorry, the experience is just NOT there.
I know there are a lot of 4th gen lovers in here, and I used to be one of them. Then I bought a GTO and never looked back. It is no less fun than my WS.6 Trans Am was.
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Didn't enthusiasts want the G8 rebadged as a new Impala?
I'll do ya one better. I've driven a 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro (not mine), I've driven a 2010 1SS, I've driven my stock Z28, and I've test driven the 135i.
A stock Z28 feels fast, sporty, and sure it's not exactly comfortable near the limit, but it's a great drive.
A 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro is literally just building upon a car that I'm already comfortable driving.
The 2010 SS is NOT as fun to drive as a 4th Gen. Sorry, the experience is just NOT there.
Which is exactly why the 135i is on my list. It's literally close to the experience that I get in MY Camaro with better driving characteristics. I want a car that performs that is enjoyable to drive.
Being a fan of the Camaro, I WANT that car from GM, but screw em while they have their thumb up their butts.
I'll do ya one better. I've driven a 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro (not mine), I've driven a 2010 1SS, I've driven my stock Z28, and I've test driven the 135i.
A stock Z28 feels fast, sporty, and sure it's not exactly comfortable near the limit, but it's a great drive.
A 420ish hp 4th Gen Camaro is literally just building upon a car that I'm already comfortable driving.
The 2010 SS is NOT as fun to drive as a 4th Gen. Sorry, the experience is just NOT there.
Which is exactly why the 135i is on my list. It's literally close to the experience that I get in MY Camaro with better driving characteristics. I want a car that performs that is enjoyable to drive.
Being a fan of the Camaro, I WANT that car from GM, but screw em while they have their thumb up their butts.