Alpha: All things to all enthusiasts.
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Good points.
So I guess you can now see where I'm heading with the 'newer' Alpha platform when it slots in beside the 'older' Zeta platform. Will there be the weight savings anticipated? I have my doubts and stated my reasons. Though, I do want GM to underpromise and overdeliver a world class Alpha platform that is the equal of the BMW 3-series.
So I guess you can now see where I'm heading with the 'newer' Alpha platform when it slots in beside the 'older' Zeta platform. Will there be the weight savings anticipated? I have my doubts and stated my reasons. Though, I do want GM to underpromise and overdeliver a world class Alpha platform that is the equal of the BMW 3-series.
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From: Chicagoland IL
The more I hear this, the more I am starting to think we might have Camaro on Zeta for longer than we think. At least a on refresh.
My main reasoning is..
Alpha will be a lose, lose for the Camaro. It will either use light weight materials and cost a lot more than Zeta, or use heavy materials and cost only a little more. Without a lot of aluminum, there I can see no way that a V8 Alpha Camaro weighs less than 3700lbs.
The current Camaro sells like hotcakes..and if GM can keep it fresh without an all new platform..why add the per unit cost of Alpha? Ford was able to keep the fox body Mustang relevent for 25 years..that means Zeta Camaro could last 10. I know you guys are thinking.."Well coupes get old"..but the new Camaro has personality, and the public imagination like no other past Camaro. When 300 of them lined up for a cruise at Camaro5fest last weekend..people were actually running out of their houses, and lining the streets cheering them on.
I could see GM keeping Camaro on Zeta through first generation of Alpha, and then when Alpha is refreshed passing down the old platform like Mercedes did with Chrysler.
b)
My main reasoning is..
Alpha will be a lose, lose for the Camaro. It will either use light weight materials and cost a lot more than Zeta, or use heavy materials and cost only a little more. Without a lot of aluminum, there I can see no way that a V8 Alpha Camaro weighs less than 3700lbs.
The current Camaro sells like hotcakes..and if GM can keep it fresh without an all new platform..why add the per unit cost of Alpha? Ford was able to keep the fox body Mustang relevent for 25 years..that means Zeta Camaro could last 10. I know you guys are thinking.."Well coupes get old"..but the new Camaro has personality, and the public imagination like no other past Camaro. When 300 of them lined up for a cruise at Camaro5fest last weekend..people were actually running out of their houses, and lining the streets cheering them on.
I could see GM keeping Camaro on Zeta through first generation of Alpha, and then when Alpha is refreshed passing down the old platform like Mercedes did with Chrysler.
b)
The case for an Alpha Camaro is strong. Very strong. The current car is on it's own unique architecture with it's own unique supplier base, tying up an assembly line designed to assemble 3 or 4 times the volume Camaro puts out. Not a scenario to make bean counters happy.
Beyond that, I don't accept the notion that we have to throw up our hands and say "oh well, all of our cars need to be overweight or exotically expensive". First, lightweight materials are becoming commonplace thus reducing their cost. Second, if weight control is a top priority from the onset, techniques and materials of a very non-exotic nature can and will be applied. Think of this as Mazda's "Gram Strategy". The next gen Mustang is currently going through this process, where every component is being looked at, reviewed and redesigned. Mundane parts you'd never even give a thought to. But save incrementally on all or most, and ounces turn into pounds. The next gen Mustang will be lighter than the current one. I don't think GM wants to be caught with it's Camaro pants down, weight-wise, again.
The Zeta Camaro is a lame duck. Thank heaven it's selling as well as it is right now, otherwise it would have a target on it's back already.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 23, 2010 at 09:36 AM.
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From: South Bend , IN
The next Mustang is protected for a 4, 6, 8, and its said to actually be losing weight and there doesnt seem to be any doubters saying Ford cant pull it off
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From: Santa Clara, CA
The case for an Alpha Camaro is strong. Very strong. The current car is on it's own unique architecture with it's own unique supplier base, tying up an assembly line designed to assemble 3 or 4 times the volume Camaro puts out. Not a scenario to make bean counters happy.
Beyond that, I don't accept the notion that we have to throw up our hands and say "oh well, all of our cars need to be overweight or exotically expensive". First, lightweight materials are becoming commonplace thus reducing their cost.
Beyond that, I don't accept the notion that we have to throw up our hands and say "oh well, all of our cars need to be overweight or exotically expensive". First, lightweight materials are becoming commonplace thus reducing their cost.
Second, if weight control is a top priority from the onset, techniques and materials of a very non-exotic nature can and will be applied. Think of this as Mazda's "Gram Strategy". The next gen Mustang is currently going through this process, where every component is being looked at, reviewed and redesigned. Mundane parts you'd never even give a thought to. But save incrementally on all or most, and ounces turn into pounds. The next gen Mustang will be lighter than the current one. I don't think GM wants to be caught with it's Camaro pants down, weight-wise, again.
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From: Santa Clara, CA
Let me be clear. ANY weight savings in a re-design is warmly welcomed. In this case, what I am saying is that if you cannot significantly bring an Alpha Camaro down in weight from the Zeta Camaro, you might as well leave Camaro on Zeta, go through the process of sweating weight savings there, and focus Alpha once again on being the small RWD platform with 4 and 6 cylinder versions only. Why put in the development work and cost to package-protect the platform for a V8 Camaro when there would be little difference between it and Zeta?
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From: USA
Lets be clear here. Alpha is designed for Cadillac..so it is a premium platform. Some amount of money will have to be spent to deengineer it to a Camaro price point. One would think that there would be a point where it would be cheaper to slap some lightweight materials on Zeta, or send it through the "gram" process rather than try and make a brand new Cadillac platform fit Camaro. Especially if Zeta is gonna somehow be around another decade..which means it will lose weight anyway.
I am not saying Camaro won't end up on Alpha...but I am sayings it may not be as soon as everyone things..especially if the current car continues to sell.
I really have a hard time beleiving an Alpha Camaro will weigh less than 3700lbs in V8 Camaro form.
I am not saying Camaro won't end up on Alpha...but I am sayings it may not be as soon as everyone things..especially if the current car continues to sell.
I really have a hard time beleiving an Alpha Camaro will weigh less than 3700lbs in V8 Camaro form.
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From: Okemos, MI
Sure, it'd be nice to have it lose more, but as a community we should take whatever we can get, whenever we can get it.
3700 isn't that much heavier than the current Mustang GT, which is getting heaps of praise for its handling. I'd bet that Mustang GT + IRS would be pretty much the same weight.
I'm not denying that I'd love a 3000lb V8 Camaro, but we have to accept reality for what it is.
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From: Chicagoland IL
That doesn't necessarily follow. It could get more expensive, due to lack of supply. It's not like people are just learning how to use aluminum. Materials like platinum have gone up in cost since they started putting it in catalytic converters around the globe.
In spite of this Mazdas have had the same kind of weight gain that every one else has had. I know that part of that is due to the gram strategy not being applied to all of their models. But the Miata has certainly had weight creep over the last 20 years.
In spite of this Mazdas have had the same kind of weight gain that every one else has had. I know that part of that is due to the gram strategy not being applied to all of their models. But the Miata has certainly had weight creep over the last 20 years.
The Miata is a great example. Yes, it has creeped up in weight a little bit as the car has increased in size, gotten more features and more power, but it's still a lightweight - softop, lightly optioned ones are still around 2500 pounds. Besides, the 6th gen Camaro is getting smaller, not larger.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 23, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Lets be clear here. Alpha is designed for Cadillac..so it is a premium platform. Some amount of money will have to be spent to deengineer it to a Camaro price point. One would think that there would be a point where it would be cheaper to slap some lightweight materials on Zeta, or send it through the "gram" process rather than try and make a brand new Cadillac platform fit Camaro. Especially if Zeta is gonna somehow be around another decade..which means it will lose weight anyway.
I am not saying Camaro won't end up on Alpha...but I am sayings it may not be as soon as everyone things..especially if the current car continues to sell.
I really have a hard time beleiving an Alpha Camaro will weigh less than 3700lbs in V8 Camaro form.
I am not saying Camaro won't end up on Alpha...but I am sayings it may not be as soon as everyone things..especially if the current car continues to sell.
I really have a hard time beleiving an Alpha Camaro will weigh less than 3700lbs in V8 Camaro form.
Gram Strategy on Zeta Camaro? My friend, sometimes it's better to just start from scratch.
Why would they need to "deengineer" Alpha for Camaro? They'll be close enough in price. Like I said, the business plan for an Alpha Camaro just make too much sense to ignore.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 23, 2010 at 05:36 PM.
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From: South Bend , IN
Reality for me on the small ATS variants would be over 3400 and under 3700. Obviously the V8's and TTv6 being closer to 3700 . There will be lots of new chassis and body structure tech on the alpha cars so I dont see my expectations as being the least bit irrational .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; Apr 23, 2010 at 05:32 PM.
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From: All around
Originally Posted by autoweek
Doing away with move toward hybrid construction, which saw the front end of the old 5-series fashioned completely from aluminum, the new model returns to a full steel unibody.
If only we knew the fine details of the cost impact this had...
While the 2011 Mustang went and lost a bit of weight.
No dark magic - just good ol American engineering.
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I dunno, a $24K Camaro does not seem anywhere in the ballpark of anything Cadillac sells..or would sell. GM will do well with the next Camaro..but I think your setting yourself up for a big dose of disappointment with the expectations you are throwing out there.
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From: Santa Clara, CA
The Miata is a great example. Yes, it has creeped up in weight a little bit as the car has increased in size, gotten more features and more power, but it's still a lightweight - softop, lightly optioned ones are still around 2500 pounds. Besides, the 6th gen Camaro is getting smaller, not larger.