And you totally missed the point of my statement. GM should aim high.

"doubters"? Does that make you a believer? This is sounding more like the Religion of Alpha.

It's just a platform, folks. It may be able to meet 2016 crash standards, have all the gadgets people will expect, produce 450hp, weigh 3500 pounds, have superb handling and steering feel, make the current Camaro seem like a boat anchor, have awesome styling appeal to 18 year olds, beat the Mustang, make GM wads of cash, and most important of all, make Charlie achieve Camaro Nirvana.

All I've seen from GM so far is a statement that they want Alpha to have excellent steering feel and then a generic statements about trying to make future vehicles in general lighter.

Read into that what you want. I'm just saying that the last paragraph does not guarantee achievement of the previous paragraph. And Zeta has nothing to do with any of this.

 

I guess I'm just not ready to drink the kool-aide.

At this point in time, I'm just waiting to see what the production 2011 Camaro convertible looks like, especially with the top up. If its everything I hope/expect it to be, then I'll pull the trigger... and at this point, I'm leaning toward a red 2LT/RS automatic.

 

Oooo, sounds sweet. Put me down for two.

 

Two?!? You better buy 20! Three for you, one for each family member and the rest for your friends.

 

GM should aim high but more is the question, are your collective expectations too high?

Expectations are seemingly impossible here. Just look at the yardstick car that we keep bringing up - the BMW M3. That weighs 3700lbs. How the #### do you expect GM to deliver an Alpha based car that undercuts it by +200 lbs?

Let's talk basics here instead of Z284ever rhetoric.

Name the components that can be used to cut weight and by how much.

 

It's basically anybody who challenges his relentless attacks on Zeta and anybody who happens to also be Australian.

I wish we would talk basics instead of talking about cars in a mystical/religious/pie in the sky sense. There is currently no BMW M3 sized car with a V8 that weighs 3500lbs. Given stricter crash standards in 2015, cars will only get heavier. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

Yes, I want GM to deliver a true BMW M3 rival but I am also a realist. If that car happens to weigh whatever it weighs to compete, so be it. Weight is not the be all measure of everything. 'Fun' comes in all kinds of packages, too. Some people ought to get out more.

 

Two max. I'm not that generous...

 

I think it could be done since you're not including BMW-like gadgetry. FWIW, if you told me the 6th Gen Z28 would weigh even 3600 or so with slightly smaller exterior proportions, I'd be happy with it. Obviously the lower trim levels would go down from there.

 

So what gadgets do you speak of... and how much weight does each gadget carry?

 

I'd like to know that myself, but surely things like navigation, iDrive (or do they call it 'M' Drive in the 'M' cars?), and those uber-plush and comfy heated and cooled seats don't come without a weight penalty....

 

You lost me on the iDrive and heated seats. iDrive is essentially a central computer that operates all manner of electronics from the same central location. If anything, it would save weight on wiring. And heated seats weigh about ~1 lb per seat - let's not forget Cadillac introduced them way back in 1966 (that's well before I was born!).

If you had've said SMG I'd be more understanding. But even so, it still doesn't account for the 200lbs of weight we need to trim down to get down to a satisfactory 3500 lbs weight figure.

I doubt it would be aluminum suspension cradles as the cradles would need extra thickness (at the expense of both cost and weight increases) to meet the strength of steel.

The BMW M3 is the perfect yardstick as it's already got a lot of exotic weight saving materials used in its construction.

So what other things do we need to focus on to trim the weight further? Any more ideas?

 

It also includes a large LCD screen and some of the controls are redundant if I recall correctly. It even allows the driver to control throttle response and steering feel. How about "automatic seatbelt arms" and an optional electronic suspension damping system? All this according to Edmunds.com.

Go ahead an include that transmission too.

Besides perhaps utilizing some aluminum (which is becoming more common anyway), perhaps you can point out specifically which "exotic materials" the 3-series/M3 uses? The M3 coupe is lighter than the M3 sedan and uses a carbon fiber roof (obviously not going to be on Camaro, I'll give you that!)

 

Those seats in the M3 do weigh a ton. Going to simple 4 way power would save a good deal of weight. Also, the M3's rear seats are nicer than a Camaro's rear seats (and heavier... and bigger... and can actually fit a human being ). The 5th gen sports 100lb of sound insulation. The M3 sports a bit more, so there'd be a savings. The SMG adds weight as well. BMW uses a fancy-pants cabin-air-filtration system. Does a Camaro really need that? The M3 has all sorts of whiz bang electronics a Camaro just would not need.

Some ideas (as you mentioned electronics)...

1)Multiplex instrumentation and switches
2)Use TXL wire instead of GXL wire
3)Go to 24V (Not gonna happen, but it'd really shave weight)
4)LED lighting is pricey up front, but the lamps become shallower which would increase interior space while saving weight.
5)Replace relays with solid state components ($2/relay would go up to ~$6/ea) this would cut down on the size of the power distribution center as well, saving weight. The PDC is already on a PC Board, so its not a shocker.

And the obvious...

6)Smaller Wheels!
7)Steal Recaro seats from somewhere else in GM's lineup. Use them, don't spend styling dollars. Use the cost savings toward HSS or UHSS in other places.
8)Get rid of the "X" pipe exhaust and go back to the Y-pipe setup with a single muffler like the 4th gen.

 

Many of the features of iDrive are purely software driven. A EEPROM stores this information and the iDrive just resets the table settings.

The exotic materials I refer to are the carbon fiber roof and wheel/brake components (aluminum).

There doesn't appear to be too many things to substitute to get the weight down... which was my point all along. That's why I put the question out there to those far more knowledgeable than myself. If BMW can't get weight out, then GM can't do it either.

Those that disagree need to address my basic question.

 

The seats topic is not about power seats, it's more about seat warming/cooling which does not weight much at all. Electric seats over manual adjust amounts to a penalty of around 7 lbs per seat.

As for the other things you mention, how much weight could actually be saved?

And 100lb of sound insulation... could you provide a reference?