In basic size, the 5th Gen compares to the 5-series BMW. I just looked up the curb weight for the 2010 M5. It's just over 4000 pounds. So the similar-sized Zeta Camaro costs 1/3 of the price, is designed to handle similar power and yet weighs a bit less in SS trim.

There must be something awfully "exotic" about how Zeta is constructed.

 

It adds up. And I'd like to see some backing evidence that a heating/cooling element in a seat, complete with the necessary wiring and thermostat/control module and switch only weighs a single pound.

 

Ouch! How about something like the 2nd gen, true duals into a single muffler with dual inlets and dual outlets. Lets never repeat the mistake of the 3rd/4th gen exhaust.

 

I vote for the Recaros straight out of the Regal GS.

 

Yeah, let's forget the 'Y pipe' suggestion was ever mentioned.

 

There's no Y pipe if you go with more than cat - which it will.

 

Hmm...LS1 cars had 2 cats and a Y-pipe, nevertheless it is clearly not the way we'd like to go....

 

Okay, I gotcha now...

 

CTS-V seats?

I am curious about both weights though. Are the Opel spec'd seats lighter?

Now on the Y-pipe, yes it is a bad idea, but it would be a weight savings. It is what it is. That's what people wanted, so I said it out loud!
7lb per seat is not accurate for the BMW cars though. I was talking to a few of the guys at Magna a while back at one of their dog-n-pony shows about seats and they were saying a 4 way power to manual is 7-10lb, but BMW seats have a LOT more to them than that. Add in the side bolsters that actually grip tighter in the turns, the movable lower section, the lumbar sections.... you're talking about one HEAVY seat. A Camaro need not all those gizmos - and at that point you're realistically talking 20lb-30lb a seat.


TXL : For every 250ft of wire in the car, you're saving 1lb just going to TXL from GXL (for 14 gauge) and there is a LOT of wire in the car now. Downside is by using thinner insulation you need to have convolute and tape on it to protect the wires from rubbing through - but a good routing plan with aids (clips, trees, etc) will minimize that.

Multiplexing saves wire size and the number of wires (increases the TXL benefit) - but each switch and gauge is more expensive. The line gets drawn somewhere in the middle. For example, a multiplexed door system replaces the discreet switches with a module (mirror controls, locks, windows) with a brain box that has those switches built in (but the switches carry no current). Going into the door you have a single power wire, a ground wire, 2 20awg logic wires and then your speaker wire. The harnesses get smaller (easier to route and handle) as well, which saves on manufacturing.

As to LED lighting, there isn't a huge weight savings (if any) but the lamps can be extremely thin and have very low heat output - meaning things like dome lamps don't poke down into the cabin and taillamps can be very thin, saving valuable trunk space.

 

I myself don't have a heavy emotional investment in Zeta. I defend it because I think it's a better platform than 2-3 people here would lead you to beleive. But ut us certainly no where near the emotional invenstment you have in getting Camaro away from Zeta.

I however am a big history person..and I know the picture you are painting is probaly the best case scenerio. Common sense says that reality will be somewhere between the best case scenerio and nothing happening at all. Despite being less than ideal, Mustang remained on Fox platform for 20+ years. It was supposed to be on MN-12, but that platform came in over weight. The first few years I was here, the hot buzz was Camaro would be on Sigma. In general, I can think of no time since the late 60s where Camaro or Mustang switched to a completely new platform after 4-5 years.

So what I am saying is while Zeta is less than ideal..and Camaro will move to a small platform at some point..it may not be as soon as we think. GM just spent what $400 million retooling Oshawa to make Zeta. Do you think they would pull all that tooling out and replace it after only 4 years? Say they set up an Alpha line elsewhere..then does that mean the pull Camaro out of Oshawa.

My money is on GM letting the Camaro sit on Zeta for 6-8 years through at least one refresh. I am gonna guess in the refresh Zeta will loose some weight since it will be around till the end of the decade. By then Alpha will be a known beast and the costs will be down enough for it to make sense.

 

Was it $400M? I can't remember, but that's probably about right. That $400M was for an assembly line which could produce 3-400,000 Zetas, not 100,000 Camaros (or 80K or 50K or whatever it might be in a couple of years). So yes, I think GM would pull the plug on that investment in a heartbeat - especially as Camaro sales start to slow and if the program bleeds red ink.

Honestly, if GM is still selling the current Camaro in 2018, something has melted down. It'd be nice if the 6th gen came out concurrently with the next gen Mustang around 2014-ish.

The first ATS's will be in production about two years from now, so no, they won't close down the current Camaro assembly line at that time. But Camaro will ultimately join the ATS wherever it's assembled.

 

I seriously doubt all of those BMW "gadgets" added up weigh much more than similar gadgets already included in a fully loaded 2SS Camaro.

Where the BMW saves weight over the Camaro is in materials used in its structural and drivetrain assemblies, and that's where pricier exotic materials come into play. Sure GM could follow suit with Camaro, but how many would buy a Camaro that cost more than a Corvette?

 

I know you meant that as a joke, but the Zeta is actually a very competitive design. It weighs less than the slightly larger but FWD LaCrosse.

A better comparison to the M5 would be the G8 GXP, which also weighed just over 4000 pounds. Compare the Camaro to the M6, which has a carbon fiber roof, IIRC, to further reduce weight below (and increase price above) the M5.

I realize that the essential issue here is that many would rather have a Camaro that matches against the M3 size-wise, instead of the M6.
From the standpoint of interior, the Camaro matches better with the 1-series, but that doesn't seem to make up for it to Charlie

 

Ponder what you just said.


The Camaro has the interior space of a 1 Series, (actually, I found the 1 to be alittle bit more airy), and the exterior dimensions of a 6 Series.

Note to GM: Try to do better on the packaging next time.

 

Yeah, I considered the irony as I was typing.

Having sat in the back of the current Camaro and Mustang, as well as G35 coupes at autoshows, my F4 Camaro has a better back seat than any of those.

The styling drove the packaging on all those, whereas the BMWs tend to be more of a form-follows-function design. Except for the X6, which I've never seen the point of.