Kid at my school says there making a new firebird! He also said my car has NOS hook ups (yet it does not?)

 

Heh...yes, but not everyone agrees with it, which I expected. It was also partially taken out of context. Maybe I will clarify a bit in the next Podcast. Until then, I encourage people to call our podcast voicemail hotline and give me their thoughts on the issue so I can address them...even if you agree or disagree or want to offer another idea to consider or leave general thoughts. You can't leave a wrong voicemail for us. The number is 586-486-3182. Be sure to leave your name and forum user name.

BTW...if I remember hearing correctly, the SLP Camaro SS package helped production last a year or two or longer than planned.

 

word

 

Damn... I get sick for a few days... and look what I missed!

 

Agreed. But the 4th gen arguably MADE the Z28 as it's viewed today. The pavement ripping, 4 passenger Corvette came into being with the last version. All previous versions have either a wide range of models (LT, Berlinetta, RS, Sport Coupe), or a "hero" car of another name (IROC or SS).

Agreed.


No that's not an assertion. Again, I'm simply playing devils advocate. As usual the reason I "might" be doing this "might" have some real basis to it. I think that if there is a case for making Z28 it's own model, in language a business like GM can understand, and knowing that "some people" read this site....... I think you get what I'm doing.


Carelessly throwing percentages around without regard for actual production numbers is an ingenious but flawed move that would invite being ripped to shreds if used in a actual meeting on the subject, as you'll see why in the production numbers below.

Lets go through the numbers:
(Z27 was the Camaro SS option code, Z28 is our subject's code)

1967:
Z27- 34,411
Z28- 602

1968:
Z27- 30,695
Z28- 7,199

1969 (the numbers for this year are inflated because production ran from September '68 till February 1970):
Z27- 36,309
Z28- 20,302

1970:
Z27- 12,467
Z28- 8,733

1971:
Z27- 8,377
Z28- 4,862

1972:
Z27- 6,562
Z28- 2,575

In 1973 The Camaro SS was dropped. Z28 basically picked up the SS' sales.

1973:
Z28- 11,574

1974:
Z28- 13,802

It's a perfect example of sales canibalism. No SS, Z28 sold what would be expected of both combined. SS outsold Z28 in the years both were available. Z28 sold respectable numbers, but caught on fire???

I also pointed out that the Z28 only got it's legs when the SS was killed..... which it did:

54,907 in 1978, 84,877 in '79, 45,137 in '80.

Also, the Z28 was created for the SCCA's Trans Am racing series, which required the car to also be sold in the showroom. Going back to my earlier point: Z28 was developed as a track car for a racing course. It was a handling package whose option code was 1 number up from the SS.

Z28 also did not have an automatic transmission till 1970, which could be viewed as it's 1st step towards being a model in itself. On the option codes, Z28 was refered to as a "merchandise package" in later years.


Jumping ahead to 4th gen, numbers (and note the direction the numbers go as far as vehicle mix):

1993:
Z28-17,850

1994:
Z28-40,940

1995:
Z28- 38359

1996:
Z28-17,844
SS- 2,410

1997:
Z28- 21,292
SS- 6,905 (includes anniversary model)

1998:
Z28-22,249
SS- 3,025

1999:
Z28-12,556
SS- 4,837

2000:
Z28- 20,152
SS- 8,913

2001:
Z28-6,320
SS- 6,332

2002:
Z28- 12,906
SS- 11,191

I imagine it'd be pretty uncomfortable trying to convince marketers and finance that the direction of the numbers both in percentage of sales as well as volume was a fluke.

This is just like that post on fighting GM's use of struts on the next Camaro "with every fiber of (your) being ". If it doesn't make real financial sense, emotions don't matter. It's going to happen.

On the flip side, make a real case that makes real financial sense, and we'll be making real progress.

Wrong. Not only don't the production numbers don't support this, history doesn't either. SS was killed because of insurence stigma. Across the board.

As far as sucking the sales/marketing oxygen out of Camaro SS.......????
The Z28 sucked no more oxygen out of the SS than a mediocre liplock in a game of spin the bottle. Again, there's zilch support to this assertion, and you'd be torn to shreds in a GM meeting on this subject.

I agree 100%. Any Chevy can be an SS, and only a Camaro can be a Z28.

But what we need here is proof that someone can actually take and lay infront of someone else who is looking at the most cost effective way of doing business. What I'm doing looking for here is some type of facts & figures, or method to say " OK, both cars can co-exist as different models in the same line up."

Ford can make a case for the Mach1, or they can make a case for the Boss Mustang. They can make a case for making them in different years. But they can't make a case for marketing both at the exact same time today as they did back in the 60s. The volume, market position, and purpose won't allow it.

Which again, playing devils advocate, brings me back to the begining problem:

Making a Z28 model that's not just a "Racing Track Package" on an SS, or creating a Z28 that's a high cost, limited production "Super Camaro" in the $40K+ range like the GT500 which can be sold profitably and won't canibalize sales from the SS.

(remember, GM isn't going to pay twice to market the same car, and SS is likely to be the top volume "performance" Camaro...... the one that's going to be "on the cover")

 

Guy, FWIW

RPO-Z27 did not come into being until the 1969 production year. SS Camaros were determined by engine displacement in 1967 and 68, either L48, L35 or L78. The production numbers you're showing for SS in 1967 included all three engine options. (For 1968, L34 and L89 are also included.)

Still you need to remember that had Trans Am allowed the production 5.7L displacement in 1967 to be destroked to 5.0L for race trim, the Z/28 would have never existed.

You also make some solid points when it comes to 3rd and 4th generation top-performance Camaros. However, that argument does not hold water with the 5th gen. If GM only cared about the sales numbers in the last two series, would the 5th gen Camaro have been inspired by the 1st gens? Additionally, had GM continued to support IROC, would the 4th gen SLP Camaros been called IROC-Z? The IROC was a marketing ploy. The SS was a ploy to give Chevy a SLP version of their ponycar like Pontiac. The Z/28 in its original form was simply an RPO designation for a production race car to allow Chevy to go Trans Am racing. (Hense why it didn't even receive badges until midway through its second year of production.)

We're not asking for the moon here. We're asking for GM to produce a no-nonsence version of the Camaro along the same vein as the Z06 Corvette to compete with the Shelby GT-500. For that Camaro (should it be built) to be called anything but Z/28 is ludicrous, especially when you consider the heritage styling of this Camaro.

The pro-SS camp can scream all they want that the SS-should be top-dog; however the pro-Z/28 camp will never change their tune. And since most of us have the kind of money that such a Camaro would require, the only real question should be is "will GM build such a Camaro"? If they don't, there are plenty of aftermarket shops ready to take on the task. I'd rather give my money to my local Chevy dealer, but if GM doesn't want him to have it because they won't build it, then I'll just take my money elsewhere.

 

I think you are mistaken in comparing (Camaro) SS and Z/28 sales figures one for one. An SS (Camaro) could be had in various flavors and configurations, and most usually were relatively milktoast in execution. On the other hand, seeing a Z/28 emblem on a Camaro gave you a loud and clear message of what that Camaro was all about. My '70 Camaro SS350 was essentially a base Camaro with a midlevel engine, it was one of the milktoast versions. It even had 14" wheels and dorky grandma hubcaps. But ANY '70 Z/28 had a very hot, high compression, LT-1, filled with top of the line, premium components. It's tires, wheels, suspension, driveline, etc., were the very best that GM had to offer. It was a narrowly focused performance model aimed at a specific niche. And yet...according to your numbers....it still sold at roughly 50%-75% of the "mass appeal" SS version.

My friend's mommies used to drive Camaro SS's. The neighborhood badass drove a Z/28.


So why was the Camaro SS replaced by the Type LT and the Z/28 lived on.

As far as being in a GM meeting, I've never been in one - but then, neither have you. But if I were in such a meeting, I'd say I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is....and I know a bunch of people who are considered opinion leaders, who are eagerly willing to do the same. Trust me on this, no one is going to tear me to shreds.


I think the larger risk is homogenizing the Z/28 brand into a generalized non-entity. As far as "paying twice" to market the same car, there is where your whole point disintegrates. They shouldn't be the same cars. They should be markedly different cars.

And I promise you, if GM gives us a "real" Z/28, they won't need to spend a frickin' nickel on marketing. It'll market itself, like it always has. And it'll market the whole Camaro line - again, like it always has.

 

I think the better question is WHY build an SS Camaro when you have the legendary Z/28 name?

The Corvette doesn't need an SS model so why water down the Camaro line with one?

Not like the SS name means uncompromising performance...

 

Right, wrong, or indifferent .....

..... I'm with Charlie!!

 

I've always been a fan of the SS recipe on Chevys (recent abuses of the name aside). However, the edict that the performance version of every Chevy has to wear the SS badge was an error in my view. Right now, as an SS fan I would be willing to support the idea of a Z/28 Camaro instead of an SS Camaro - for now. My thinking is this, "SS" needs to be meaningful which GM is now realizing in naming the performance version of the Equinox "Sport" and not "SS". I really don't see both the Z/28 and the SS Camaro being able to co-exist in the current market as separate models. We no longer have torque-monster big blocks to differentiate an SS from a high-strung small block Z/28. So, if the Z/28 faithful can't accept a road-race bred performance option or an expensive "supercamaro" as the Z/28 with the SS as the "on the cover" performance version, then they will have to accept the Z/28 as the only performance version (except for special limited editions which are apparantly planned). So, if we are to have a mass-market Z/28, I'd rather we had no SS at all.

With all of that said, my heart says that Z/28 should be exactly what it started life as: a balanced performance package tuned for road racing. With SS being the street terror it was always meant to be.

So, what's it gonna be?

 

Just thought I'd point out that in the early 90s, Camaro Z/28 was part of a Chevy performance branding scheme that included the Cavailer Z/24 and the Beretta Z/26 and a Lumina Z/something. So, if you guys want to drag the Cobolt into this, it's only fair to bring up the Cavailer, right?

Yeah, but realistically, first GM has to launch the Camaro, then they can assess what the market reaction to a Top Dog car might be, and only after that do they decide what to call it. At the very least, it's a decision that's not going to get made for 3-4 years or so.

I find the unsupported idea that one "camp" has more money than the other kinda humorous. GM probably sees all you guys in the same Camaro Enthusiast "camp" anyway, and will do their best to make everyone happy.

It's really something that can't be answered without marketing surveys and studies anyway.

 

Just thought I'd say the Lumina was a Lumina Z34.

I have a '93 Z34 sitting at my mothers (growing weeds around it and probably housing mice) in need of a transmission... I need to just give it away since I'll probably never have one put in it.

Lumina Z34 was, imo, one of the sharpest looking vehicles of it's time. And still think it's a nice looking vehicle by todays standards.

 

My heart certainly supports Charlie's vision of what the Z/28 should be, but the reality is that for the same price I'd be more likely to buy a used Z06 than a new Z/28.

 

YOU would, but there are probably a bunch of others who would still opt for the Camaro, because it has 4 seats instead of 2, and it's just more of a "practical" daily-driver than a 'Vette ... or they prefer the looks of the Camaro, or the Camaro name ... whatever their motivation .

But THAT'S what keeps things interesting ... personal taste . And it's also why (or "how") a Z/28 and an SS CAN co-exist, because everybody has their own preference (this is VERY obvious by the number of Z/28 vs. SS threads that have gone on around here! ) so while one person wants their 'pin-you-to-the-seat-stoplight-to-stoplight-427', others want 'neck-snapping-acceleration-in-all-directions-including-turns!'

 

Does it really need to be that expensive? I mean, people are throwing around $40 -$50,000 price tags, but no one really knows. Those are all just blind guesses. Perhaps, based on what people are paying for a GT500.

Frankly, I don't think it needs to be that expensive, especially if it's normally aspirated. We keep hearing that we'll be able to buy it at a "Chevy price". And based on Bob Lutz's comments, the 400 hp version should sticker well under $30K. Why couldn't a proper Z/28 MSRP for $34-$35K?