How silly would a max focus, road race inspired Camaro be - if it were to be called anything other than Z/28? Honestly.... SS, Berlinetta, what have you, just doesn't have the same energy for me. Not even close.

Sounds to me like lots of people want a Z/28. Some of us require this Z/28 to be called just that. None of us, it seems, is opposed to a Z/28 being called Z/28.

 

I agree totally. Yes, I know we have been through this before, and what some had said last time changed my stance a little. Also, Im fully ready to say yes, the Z28 is the top of the line Camaro....like this guy said, Im more interested in keeping the name if nothing else. I guess Im just trying to get to the bottom of a few things that Ive been thinking about, but just cant figure out on my own. Some of you have lived to see base first generation SSs and Z28s square off against eachother, whereas I have not...Im only 21, live in a itsy bitsy town in Oregon, and to be frank Ive seen very few actual 60s Camaros up close, let alone in a race, stock against stock. My last post was not to make argument, but rather to call out some of those who have first hand experience with the subject who could tell me some answers.

With that said, I guess Im looking to much at stats from archives and such. I read that the top of the line SS had significantly more horsepower than the Z28. Also read somewhere that with out any mods done, the SS could beat the Z28 in a drag (and just to point out before someone says it, I know that drags arent everything and I didnt intend for what I said to be precieved that way, because I understand that the Z28 was a superior handler due to what was included in its performance package). I think I got the info about the perfomance stats from some off hand website from some SS fanatic, so the information could be biased, yet it made sense because usually, though its not physical law, the higher the horsepower the faster the car. Basically what Im getting at is what about the Z28s package made it, with a less powerful engine, run faster than the top of the line SSs? Also, why wouldnt the SS get whatever it was that made the Z28 faster on at least the top model just to oust the competition from Ford or Dodge? If not the SS getting that xtra little upgrade, why didnt Chevy put a more powerful engine in the Z28 to again oust the competion completely? I dont know, I would have figured that a Z28 being the ballsiest beast in the Chevy jungle would have got the top of the line EVERYTHING, including the most powerful engine.

 

Jay, just to clarify a couple things, of COURSE the higher HP SS's would beat a Z/28 in the 1/4 mile, but it took the bigger, higher HP cars to do so. I apologize, I'm not an encyclopedia of 1st-gen knowledge either (I'm only 24 myself, and have learned a lot of what I know of the "early years" from my Dad, who lived through the heart of the "muscle car" era, and had a '69 SS himself ) ..... but anyway, I know there were different variations of the 350, and the 396, as well as a 427 being thrown into the mix. A base 350 SS (they were rated at 300 HP AFAIK) and a base 396 (I think they were 325 HP ) were really the HP stated. The "290 HP" Z/28's were really under-rated. They used a solid lifter cam, had crazy (~12:1 I believe?) compression ... but because of the Trans-Am (or whichever racing series they ran) rules, the engines were limited to 5.0L and <300 HP ... hence the 302 ci and 290 HP "rating" . GM has been famous for under-rating their engines ... same goes for the 427 that went into the ZL1's and the Copo's ... it was "rated" at 425 HP, but "rumour" has it they pumped out closer to ~500 HP .

There was nothing "wrong" with an SS, but the Z/28's were BUILT to RACE. They (initally) only came with 4-speeds (like how the current Z06 only comes with a 6-speed) so right there, they were making a statement about what that car was all about. Back in the day, a Z/28 was a force to be reckoned with, and I think they still are .

 

You misread my post entirely.

 

PERFECT!!! Thats the kind of answer I was looking for! I was pretty much looking for the reason behind the Z28 getting the smaller engine, as well as why it ran so fast with so little...and you stated exactly what I needed to hear, thanks.

 

Like the last Z28?

The only item we're talking about is Z28. Z28 is an option code.


Z28 was a option code and a track package. All the way up till it's termination in 1974.

Again, an option code (low cost package like the Z51) versus a separate model (which incurs marketing costs).


Z28 played a subservant role in the RS (Z28 package was available), the IROC (which it was called the IROC-Z), and the SS (Z28SS).

Corvette Z06 is a poor comparison because there is no Corvette SS, and SS has no heritage on the Corvette, unlike Camaro.

If you really want to get specific, the Camaro SS was the most profitable Camaro, and took up a far greater percentage of Camaro LS1 sales than Z06 is taking up Corvettes.

No not off base here Charlie. Simply playing the devil's advocate here and looking from the perspective of what the people who want the Z28 to survive, but also looking at the realities of trying to convince an entity that had to essentially be coerced into approving the new Camaro.

The idea of the name Z28 strikes a nerve with you because you're highly enthusiastic about the car. But come up with some facts that refute what I've posted. Come up with something that can be used to keep Z28 a separate model.

How do you refute the Camaro SS's success against the Z28's?

How would you market a Z28 against the SS?

How do you answer a person who makes the point that the Z28 name didn't come onto it's own and became a fixture till it was reintroduced after a 2 year absence 10 years after it was introduced?

How do you counter the position that the only reason Z28 became a fixture at all is because of the lack of an SS model?


How do you provide a platform to base an argument to refute my contention that given that SS is going to be the top performer at Chevrolet (save Corvette), that Z28 will only have the option of becoming a "Competition Option" on an SS (and perhaps even a mid model), or it's going to have to becaome a high priced "Super Camaro"????

Keep in mind you are dealing with a company that isn't going to spend money unless it makes money, and GM lives on data and logic over emotion.

 

Guy,

I can easily refute all of your points...but choose to watch football.....this horse has been beaten beyond a fine powder.

Bottom line is that he Z/28 is what made the Camaro what it was and is today...we all know that.

Cobalt SS sedan is all you need to know about the SS moniker....

Z/28 is uniquely Camaro...and it's best and most obvious bet to regain it's legendary stature.

The 4th gen SS was the benfector of the whoring out of the Z/28 name since it returned....and it's watered down mission.

FWIW, they dropped the SS moniker in the first place because everyone knew the Z/28 was the Camaro to have.

 

Oh my. So little time and so much to type. Let me get some thoughts down, and then I've got to fly.


Okay, mirroring the 4th gen, and using it as an example of a proper strategy would be like a symposium in failure. It would be like a Frenchman referencing WWII and saying, "you see mon ami, it makes no difference if we have an army".

I submit to you this: The 4th gen Z/28 wasn't a Z/28 in true spirit. What it was, was the "V8 Camaro". Distinguisable from the "V6 Camaro", by three cheap 12 cent emblems and different exhaust tips. The SS was a third party (SLP), developing a fake hood scoop, bigger wheels and some odds and ends for the "V8 Camaro".

There is alot to be said here, but suffice to say, my biggest issue is your assertion that a Z/28, simply be a retuned suspension package on an SS.

Because....ummmm...it was a secret? In 1967, if you didn't own an SCCA sactioned race team, you really needed to be pretty well hooked up to even know about it - let alone buy on. By the end of the year, word was on the street about this new Z/28. In 1968, Z/28 sales were up 1,200%. Chevy even got some Z/28 emblems made for it by the end of the '68 model year. By '69 it was on fire, with sales up over 300% from '68.

I'm surprised that you could be soooo wrong. As a model, the Z/28 literally caught fire, while the Camaro SS was in production. On the contrary to your assertion, the Z/28 sucked the sales/marketing oxygen out of the Camaro SS's room, killing it dead.


It can be done quite effectively. And quite profitably. And as Doug posted "any Chevy can be an SS, only a Camaro can be a Z/28".

Okay, you know I love this topic, but I've got to go.

 

Hope you aren't a Bears fan as I am then...

 

Nope...I root for the Cardiac Colts....

 

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...74#post4315174

 

Oops. I looked at this post so quickly the first time, I think that I misread it.

Your statement is patently false, if you're saying what I think you're saying. Are you saying that somehow the '67-'74 Z/28's didn't have an impact?

 

Not hard to do when you're the only Pony car on the market...
I'd like to see the stats when the Challenger Coupe hits the streets, then the Camaro...

A touchy subject...involving some questionable decisions, I won't go into...Tho they maintained sales, they didn't grow them as well as they could have.
But still, '02 models are going for their New Prices...older ones are holding decent resale values(minus sticker price mark up)

 

Sorry if I butt in...but that was the "bigger is better" era, and I believe most Z cars were smallblocks? true? That may have lessoned the impact, but you can't deny there was one...

 

this thread is still going on? doesn't anyone listen to the podcast? LOL