Agreed, but like Ford has done with the Mustang, I'm betting that GM will leverage 3rd partys for that to happen (Rousch, Saleen, Steeda, etc.)

I saw the Z07/06R blurb too. Stuffy Vette guys!

 

The podcast part.

 

I am another person who will be very upset if the SS is the entry level V8. I would also be upset if the Z28 is as well.

How do they co-exist, here is my idea...

It all starts with the base V8...all it is called is Camaro V8 (or type LT)
Price ~$24k

Available packages are:

RS (appearance, interior and exterior) lets say it is about $2K over base Camaro V8 ~ $26K

SS (Power and handling upgrade and appearance that is different from the RS) about $4.5k over base V8 ~ $28.5K

Option available on any of the models is the Z/28 which includes:
o LS7 or what ever the equivalent is available that year.
o larger brakes
o same handling upgrade as SS
o Special Z/28 badge
All of the for $13K over Base V8 price

So a plain Z/28 will start about $37K
RS Z/28 ~ $39K
SS Z/28 ~ $40.5K (only $12K for this one since they share the same handling hardware.

This at least could be a good start.

 

Downloading an MP3 file and listening to it? Yeah, not many people here have done that before...

 

How about a little respekt for us technically challenged old farts.

 

I feel you are thinking of a Camaro SS that's going to be much like the current Impala SS which GMPD invested little development. However by all indications, the next Camaro SS is soing to be much like the GXP & Cobalt SS in that it's going to have alot of development time on the track. With this as a backdrop, how do you differenciate the Z28 without taking the suspension package to the extreme or creating an expensive Z06-like Camaro?

Also, again, Camaro enthusiasts and the general public are different. You have a pretty good chance of stopping the next person on the street (male or female, into cars or not) and ask them about what an SS is or what a Z28 is, I suspect they'd go with the SS as the most popular and even the bigger performer at Chevrolet. In reality, it's not true in Camaro's case post 72, but that's likely to be the perception.

I remember I had a bear of a time convincing people right here on this very site that an SS was no faster than a Z28, and was no quicker around the track if the Z28 had the same tires. If I had a tough time here on a site called CamaroZ28.com, be certain that same perception exists in the general public.

BTW: I think you may be on to something offering a Z28 with only a manual.

Exactly. Entry into the Trans Am series was a marketing ploy to boost Camaro sales, as was later offering it s a labeled model.


Correct. Depending on whose numbers one believes, the 290 rating on the Z28 was in reality in the 320-330 range. The SS350 rating was somewhat more accurate.

Correct again. Later, the Corvette's L82 came off of the LT1. Camshaft is all that separated the two. A similar situation exists with the LS1 (which uses the same designation across the board). The LS1 in the GTO has a higher torque cam than the Corvette or Camaro LS1s did.

Digging into the dusty part of memory, the exact differences between the LT1 and the L82 was the L82 had hydralic lifters, a lower rise manifold, & a windage tray. Everything else was LT1.

If memory serves correctly in 73 or 74, the differences between the LT1 in the Z28 and the L82 in the Corvette reduced to nothing more than the Vette had the tray and a cam that delivered power higher up in the RPM range. It still had all the same internals.

A top level Camaro performing almost on par with a base level Corvette was never news.

Actually, the 1969 Trans Am was a appearence and handling package. In typical John DeLorean fashion, he stole the name.... and for once, someone sued GM over it. The car already had GTO's racing based ram air 3 engine, so Pontiac didn't need to develop anything.

The GTO Judge was initated as an answer to the relatively dirt cheap Plymouth Roadrunner, but blossmed to an overpriced 60s version of a ricer that sat on lots and failed miserably. The Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, on the other hand, was an attempt to capitalize on Pontiac's entry into the Trans Am race series. It most certainly was not a "Firebird Judge".

BTW: Raim Air was available only on Trans Ams and Formulas.

As a Firebird Trans Am fan, you MUST know that the 455SD was built based on components from Pontiac's old NASCAR engines!

Pontiac created it by taking what was essentially a ACTUAL race car engine, and toned it down to meet federal pollution regulations and the new requirement that engines run on lead-free gasoline. That required low compression heads (which kept the high flow characteristics) all the heavy duty internals.

The sticker I was refering to was placed on the valve cover and had internal specs (clearences and bolt torque specs if I remember) specifically for those who wanted to open the engine up and make it reach it's full potential. That's what Pontiac was all about. Supplying great engines, and making it relatively easy for you to get more out of them. Even with later Trans Ams, it was a open secret that you cut out the back of the T/A's sealed hoodscoop and have cold air induction from the high pressure area that was actually better than the mostly visual ram-air systems.

The emissions engine I suspect you're thinking about is the HD455, which was essentially a regular 455.

Just went over every post I've made, and nowhere have I said or implied that the SS350 Camaro was a serious performance car. I said the SS350 was rated 5 horses more than the Z28, in response to the thought that the Z28 was the top car GM offered. I pointed out that not only the Corvette and Trans Am, but other Camaros had better parts and more performance.

Z28 was a great all round package. It had a lightweight high content V8 engine, a very good handling package, a close ratio transmission, and for it's day was targeted to guys like me who place a bit more emphasis on track-like handling than having the quickest things on the streets (there were plenty of hardware on the strrets back then that'd put the Z28 on a trailer).

 

Just trying to illustrate how easy it really is.

• Listen to a sound file for 10 minutes or so
• - Be entertained in the process
• - Laugh a little bit
• - etc.

Then...

• Pick up the phone
• Dial a number
• Talk for a minute
• Hang up

Then...

• Repeat the first step a week later and enjoy the rewards of interacting with the show...

...PLUS, you get the chance to speak your mind to a decent sized audience about the whole continuing Z28 vs SS saga (the topic of this thread), or anything else that is on your mind.

Yes, folks...it really is that simple.

 

Ah, it don't matter. I'm just happy they are MAKING the new 5th gen. I am sure at least 95% of us will be happy with whatever last minute decisions they will make, that NONE of us will have a chance to know about. So why even argue w/ anyone?

Ok, so a Z28 or no Z28, I'll make sure whatever I get is the fastest one they make

 

Exactly what I'm trying to do. But a little bit more.

Personally, I'd want a Z28 much along the lines as it has been. A modestly priced, track oriented, high performance car. But indications are that's what the SS will probally be. The fellow who started the thread basically echoed what I've been hearing (about Z28 not being the same as it was in the past, assuming the name survives), and then Fbodfather chiming in, not with a "Don't worry", but with essentially a pretty dark & ominious "It's too early for anything to be finalized" eliminated any doubt what I've been hearing is probally pretty close to being accurate.



I seriously doubt it and here's the reasons why.

1. The car uses a Z06 or blown LS* engine.
The Z06 engine wholesales about $8-10K more than regular LS* engines. A supercharger about half of that. Those engines also need to recoupe development costs. The engines themselves may pass all requirements, but there's going to be costs in certifying these engines in this particular car. If we're lucky, that $4-5K and $8-10K in increased cost will hold, but that's a big "IF".

2. What volumes will it sell at?
The lower the volume, the higher the price. The higher the price the lower the volume. If the car has a unique engine, it's going to be relatively more expensive than using a regular Camaro engine.... which again treds into SS territory. GM is going to base the case of any "special" models on the low end of sales potential. That is the industry standard, as pointed out with the SRT-4, the Z06, and quite a few other cars. Ford purposely keeps production of their special Mustangs (Cobra, Bullitt, Mach1) low to keep value up. Again, the volume performance car is going to be the SS, and we're probally looking around 30 grand (just like the last ones).

3. What will be standard?
No one makes stripped performance cars anymore because they don't sell. Been proven over and over again. 4th gen Z28, Mustang GTS, GM's market survey ahead of the Z06 that showed the car would be a disaster if it stayed a "No-Frills" performance car. People who tend to buy top performance cars tend to want it loaded. WS6 Trans Ams cost nearly 33K, and was the best selling Firebird in the end. Orders for the dirt cheap Formula made the GTO look like it was blazing the sales charts. Chevy sold more $28K+ than they did sub-$23K Z28s, even though with discounts, you could get a base LS1 Z28 for under $20K towards the end (they based at just $23K!). So a Z28 would be loaded. With no other changes, and using the 4th gen SS as a basis, that means about $30-32K without inflation in 2002 dollars. More likely, we're talking about $32-35K fully loaded. Throw in a unique engine, and we're easily touching $40K.

On the other hand, a Camaro SS with a Z28 performance package would be much like the historic 70s era Trans Am with the WS6 performance package. It included essentially a track level handling package, 4 wheel disc brakes, a slightly different engine tune. Save the brakes (the Brembos is a great idea), and maybe a pair of headers and unique tailpipes, it would still make Z28 an affordable, historically accurate, and still identifiable (and well known) package that IMO would be very easy to sell even to the most conservative money guy at GM.

Again, I'd prefer an alternative to this. But I don't think the Z28 name should be on a GT500 competitor. Even if it's a grand or 2 less that the GT500, it's still far above what I'd be willing to pay for ANY Camaro. As pointed out, I'd buy a used Z06 first before any Camaro that cost over $30-32 grand.

Although I love the new GT500, but IMO Ford walked away from a huge chunk of market moving the SVT Mustang upscale from the low $30Ks to $40K. I could by a new Cobra had I chosen to. I will not buy a GT500. Price is the reason. Dealers are making a bad situation worse by scalping like mad (if anyone doesn't think Chevy dealers won't do the same, try reducing the dosage of whatever you're taking).

I think it wouldn't be wise for the same to happen with the Z28 name.

 

Ouch, I think my head hurts from all of the hairs we're splitting here.

I'm not going to argue all the Chevy stuff because we could nitpick back and forth with the "yeah, but..." all day when determining what makes an engine a "different" engine. On the Pontiac stuff, I do have to disagree with some of your points, thought.

Most of the heavy duty suspension pieces on the Trans Am were available as options on V8 Firebirds, though they were bundled in with the Trans Am package. The Ram Air III (400 HO) is a D port motor and isn't nearly as performance oriented as the round port Ram Air II and Ram Air IV (optional on Trans Am in 1969). The Ram Air III bears much less relation to the Trans Am series engines than the IV does.

Yes, you're correct. It started as project "ET" (elapsed time) with a stripper with bench seat, 4 speed, no heavy endura bumper, etc., but as more and more kept getting added it ended up kind of an executive hot rod package. The 1970 Tempest GT-37 ended up being much closer in concept to what the Judge was originally supposed to be.

I won't argue it wasn't a huge success, but The Judge package included the Ram Air III (with optional RAIV) as standard along with a Hurst floor shifter and better wheels and tires so I don't think that's just a "ricer."

Pontiac was never a serious competitor in the Trans Am series - though they intended to be. The Ram Air V tunnel port motor just simply didn't work. The Firebirds that were campaigned mostly used Chevy 302s and were entered as "Canadian" Firebirds - since Canadian Pontiacs used Chevy engines. Yes, the Trans Am was meant to capitalize on participation in the series, but the car itself didn't end up very close to what was being raced. The Trans Am was indeed envisioned as a "high impact" companion car to The Judge.

This is not true. You could order Ram Air on the Firebird 400 from 1967-69. The Ram Air II (a round port, extremely hi-po motor) was actually around in Firebird before there WAS a Trans Am or Formula.

Components/designs yes, exactly the same? The NASCAR motor was a 366 for one and the SD-455 heads are very similar to Ram Air II/IV heads.

This makes it sound like they pulled it out of the NASCAR racer and dropped it right in as-is. Yes, it had a lot of race type components (even the provision for dry sump oiling) but no matter where the parts come from, a round port 455 will be pretty dang powerful and the heads/cam/intake as originall designed were very similar to Ram Air II/IV.

I'm not arguing with you about Pontiac providing plenty of room for owners to unlock the true performance potential, and yes, I've seen the stickers, but the SD-455was an emissions motor. It had to have cam, manifold, and some other changes to pass EPA testing. Here's a very good article on the development of the engine: http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...uty/index.html

You didn't even have to cut out the scoop prior to the redesign in 77. The block off plate is held in place by rivets that could be popped out - it's essentially the same hood as the functional version up until they changed to a one-piece truly closed scoop in 77. The scoop was actually closed due to changes in drive-by noise regulations. I've heard that the scoop is actually too far forward to take full advantage of the high pressure area at the base of the windshield, but I do think that the Shaker is better than a lot of forward facing scoops that end up in a barrier area.

No, that's not what I'm thinking of. The 1971 455 H.O. introduced in 1971 IS a round port performance engine (and the ONLY engine that was available in the 1971 Trans Am). There was also a plain jane D port 455 available for GTO in 1971. In 1976 they reintroduced a "455 HO" that was a Catalina station wagon 455 with 200horses and had nothing to do with the previous motors - but that's not what I'm thinking of.

My misunderstanding, then - thought I'd still maintain that a Z28 has more "special" parts than any of the Camaro SS cars from the 60s.

Very true. No argument from me here.

 

You bring up alot of great points that I agree with. But even Bob Lutz challenges his guys to justify their position taking the role of inquisitor because this has to go up against alot of people who would rather put money where it will make the most money.

Why do we need 2 regular performance Camaros?

True.

Dealer awareness and education. If there are any parts different, then the service department has to be trained. You need to advertize to make the public aware, whether in print or television. There are costs in developing an ad as well as costs in paying someone to run your ad.

True story: The entire Pontiac Solstice program cost less than what Pontiac typically budgets for advertizing per year. How often have you seen a Pontiac commercial the past few years?


About the cost of just marketing the SS..... times two.

Name one performance car from any manufacturer that is sold for the actual cost of parts?

In reality, components are sold for one reason and one reason only.... more money. If something has $5,000 in components, it's going to be sold for $8-10 grand over, depending on how many are projected to be made.

An SRT 300 or Charger has probally about $2,000 worth of parts over a regular 300C or R/T, yet both sell for $40K and $38K respectively. Mustang Cobra had $2,000 worth of supercharger and engine upgrades over the cost of a regular Mustang 4.6, and a IRS assembly that probally cost a grand over the live axle. For that $3K, Ford sold it for about $6-8,000. And people saw it as a steal. Camaro SS had about a grand worth of parts. How much more than a Z28 did it sell for? Chrysler had a extremely healthy profit margin on the SRT-4 Neon. Ditto Ford's Lightning. Corvette's Z06 is probally the king of American performance profit margins.

Mustang GT ran about $23,000. Cobra ran about $32-35K.

Currently, Mustang GT runs about $25K. GT500 lists for just a few dollars undr $40K.

The WRXSTi over the WRX is like the idea of a Camaro SS with a "Z28 performance package" over the regular Camaro SS.

All 3 reflect the 2 options that I see, and would like to find a defendable alternative for.

 

What if in addition to this, "Z28" badging was substituted in place of the normal "SS" badging on the car?

 

Not really splitting hairs here.

But I will say I'm REALLY enjoying talking to someone who is familiar with Pontiacs

If I were to compile a list of my favorite cars, the 70s era Trans Am would rank on top. I think you, I and Charlie (and probally a couple others) could probally fill an entire multi page thread on Trans Ams and late 60s-70s Pontiac.

Trans Am had WS6 badging, so why not?

 

Oh, the good ol' days..

 

Oh, me too. It's all good natured. I love a good debate and I've read your posts for years, so I know you know what you're talkin' 'bout, but I do think some of the "facts" about these old cars have an Obi Wan Kenobi "from a certain point of view" quality to them that allows them to be spun different ways - especially almost 40 years later