Perhaps this is why the SS should maybe get the "Top Dog" *honours* if you will, and receive the grand-daddy of engines (something along the lines of the LS7?). Like in '69, give the Z/28 a high-revving screamer, not the size/HP of the SS, but with a package that'll run circles around an SS at the mere glimpse of a corner . Of course, the Z/28 needs respectable power, and has to hold its own in a drag race, but it will succomb to the SS in that department . But I think the hard-top, manual only, less options, hard-core car is what the Z/28 should probably be. And GT500 killing power for the SS.

There, is everybody happy??

 

Correct. Up till that time, Camaro SS was ordered via it's engine codes, and didn't have it's own model code per-se (if you wanted a SS350, you ordered the Hi Output L48 and it automatically was an SS. Ditto the 396s which were only available on SS).

As far as Trans Am series, of course they allowed manufacturers to destroke engines. They had a 5 liter rule, and the engines had to be in production. You don't think they expected manufacturers to create whole new engines just for the series, did you?

Everything in the car industry is a marketing ploy. Even competing in racing.

The 5th gen is inspired by the 1st gen because they wanted to get as far away from what Camaro became as possible. GM IS concerned about sales numbers. GM doesn't do charity work, and they are a business that exists by selling cars.

You seem to have arrived at one of the only 2 conclusions I could come up with: Z28 as a $40K+ GT500 competitor.

What I'm trying to do is to see how to have both the Camaro SS and the Camaro Z28 in a model line up side by side.

GM isn't going to have both cars as a similar model. SS is supposed to remain the top "popular" model. That's the problem. I'm fishing for an answer.


Base level '68 SS was rated at 295 horsepower: 5 more than Z28.

Z28's engine was underrated?

SS had 3 other engine options. All 396 cibic inches & rated over 325 horsepower..... All of them were "underrated" too.

Camaro SS was a performance model, with an emphasis on visuals. Not quite milktoast.

Which again arrives at one of the 2 options I gave: a "Super Camaro" that's destined to sell at $40K or above, and be relatively low in production numbers.

BTW: In the early 70s, the Z28's engine was essentially a Corvette L82 with a different cam. It had different spring rates & unique painted rims.

Z28 was GM had to offer????! A bit of hyperboil there, huh?
Saying Z28 was the best GM had to offer skips over not just the Corvette in Chevy's own showroom, but the car from it's in house competitor... the Pontiac Trans Am.

Trans Am actually DID have it's own race built engine (complete with a spec sticker on the valve cover for those who intended to tweak the internals of the SD455 engine). The suspension on the T/A was tweaked even more, and it handily outran a Z28 in a straight line, and would easily keep up with it on the track (the 455 based on the same pontiac block as their 350).

That's a question for Scott. I remember he once posted it here, but that was back when I was a newby.

Actually, I do know know a few people involved in said discussions.

But the point is, bravado is all well and good. But if you went into a meeting saying something sucked the wind out of something and the numbers say you're wrong, and that a car wasn't developed for racing when in fact it was, let emotions get well ahead of any proof, and say you know a bunch of people, I doubt you'd make very much progress. You'd probally lose alot of yardage with that play.

I think we need more to offer to score a hit here.


Which is answered in my "Super Camaro" option.


Again, like the last Z28 did??


Just to recap:

1. SS is going to be the top performing volume Camaro if current direction holds.

2. Z28 as it was positioned in the 4th gen may not happen, and because of where the SS is planned to be positioned, the Z28's position of the latter 2nd and 3rd gen is also not likely if directions hold.

3. This leaves only 2 options that I can see: A. Becoming a high performance package on the SS, or B. becoming a high priced, low production performance model.

4. If there is a way to continue the Z28 as a model that's both relatively affordable and doesn't canabalize the SS, it would be nice to find it.

5. Any solution should reflect on Z28's heritage as a track car, not as a budget base performance model (which did so well last time ).

6. It seems that the only direction that anyone has come up with is the "Super Camaro", Z06-like, $40,000+ solution.


Come on guys. I'm not provoking all this just to hear my own conclusions here. I'm rattling cages to get a good discussion that might be read.


Good start.

Now with the perceived success of the SS in the 1st & 2nd gen, and how the SS overtook the Z28 towards the end of the 4th gen, taking over marketedly increasing percentages of Camaro's sales (and even outselling it in 2000), how would you sell that to the powers that be???

Now we're starting to get some traction. Using Z/** watered down the name and using SS on every model may do the same.

But Chevrolet has stopped using the SS name on everything with wheels (Equinox SS was changed to a single "S" at the last minute).

But you have people hellbent on using the SS designation. Short of introducing them to your "little phrend", some aquantence named "Vito", or locking them in a meeting without allowing bathroom breaks till they agree with you, how to convince them?

 

It doesn't have to be watered down. It just has to target a different consumer. Why is that so complicated?

What I'm hearing from some is that the the ONLY performance variant Camaro should EVER have is an all out, take no prisoners, road race inspired version. If that's true (which I don't believe), kill the SS now and forever.

But like I said, I see a purpose for a Camaro SS. It can have it's own identity. It can perhaps be more mainstream that Z/28, without being "watered down".

 

I've said it 1,001 times...follow the Z06 formula for the Z/28 and it'll all be good....the SS is the Z51 Corvette of Camaros.

Alas...I'm somewhere between believing like Charlie that the Z/28 shouldn't cost an arm and a leg, but IF it comes with the HD hardware & engine I'd like to see, then so be the $40k sticker...

Hell, some SS's sold for that much and lord knows Matt Murphy made a livin' making 4th gens that sold for for twice that amount....

 

Once again Charlie, flesh it out. What is the content that defines and differentiates the SS and Z/28? I think that is the question Guy is asking as well.

However, in the big picture he didn't sell all that many of them, and he didn't have to meet OEM standards either. I doubt any of the ZL1s would survive GM validation.

 

Oh, the usual stuff Art. I can see a Z/28 having the big brakes (Brembos??), softer more agressive compound rubber, forged wheels, maybe lighter flywheel, short shifter, performance seats and all the drivetrain and suspension upgrades..and an eye an weight. A specific package for a specific niche.

A can also see some content restriction on it however, in order to not upset the total balance of the package. Personally, I'd like to see a stick/coupe only Z/28. That's just me though.

Some of us, would be willing to pay a premium for that kind of stuff. Most people won't though. In fact, most people may not even want any of that...even for free.

Independent of horsepower, which seems to be most peoples' only metric, would the SS need all that hardcore stuff? I say no. In fact, I see the SS as a more forgiving, easier to own, mainstream package - without any limitations as far as available content.

And I would bet, all the internet buzz and magazine covers that such a Z/28 would get - would end up selling alot of SS's as a bonus.

 

This is true, but the 1967 "Special Performance Package" (RPO Z28) didn't even have any badging! It was more about marketing the Camaro than the Z28 package. Sales actually did increase somewhat when badging was added for 1968.

If you go by the road tests of the time, stock and on skinny tires, the Z was typically faster than the SS350 through the quarter - low to mid 14s with the 4:10 gears.

How early? In 1970-73, the Corvette and Z28 shared the LT-1 - and it was essentially the same in both applications.

A well equipped Z28 could probaby keep pretty good pace with a 'Vette configured for cruising more than racing - just like it could in the 90s.

I'm a Pontiac guy and actually OWN a Trans Am (never actually owned a Camaro) but the 1969 Trans Am was an appearance package. Period. It was the Firebird version of "The Judge." Had the Ram Air V showed up as a production option then it would have been very different, but there was nothing hardware-wise, other than the unique hood, on a 1969 Trans Am you couldn't order on a Firebird 400. Likewise with Firebird Formula in the early 70s.

The SD455, while a spectacular engine, was essentially designed as a street engine and never intended for any specific race series like the Z28 302 was. An SD455 Trans Am will certainly outrun the typical 73/74 Z28, but the SD455was a last gasp for american performance from ANY manufacturer. When the Z28 came back in mid '77, it was faster than the Trans Am even thought it had less displacement.

You're correct that external dimensions are the same and that there are no "Big Block" and "Small Block" Pontiac engines like there are with Chevys, but the Pontiac 350 is a small journal engine and the 455 is a large journal.

I'm just happy that we're getting a Camaro period, and don't have a rabid opinion one way or the other whether the top is called Z28 or SS, but to say that an SS350 was a "serious performance car" in the same way the first gen. Z28 was is a stretch.

 

Destroking was prohibited before 1970.

As for the rest, what Eric said.

 

Give me the Camaro with looks near the concept car and a V8 preferably shared from the Vette and I don't care if you stick SR5 or GT on the door I'll take it....
This topic is a beaten horse that has died then born again... and then beaten some more...

 

I think the debate here is interesting from the standpoint that I believe Guy is challenging us to justify both the SS and proposed Z/28 models in the same lineup.

Let's say the engine choice and possibly the price points being similar (though I think the Z/28 would cost more) are the same.....I think the Z/28 should spend it's money on better performance parts and the SS spend it on all the other options for people who want the "frills".....

 

With Charlie's recent comments about a "niche product" with "limited availability", and re-reading the last few pages, I think that some of us are closer to agreement on how the SS and Z/28 can co-exist than would have seemed a short time ago.

If I am reading the positions taken correctly, the agreement seems to be that a 1LE on steroids that could be quite expensive and available in limited quantities is what Z/28 should be. If that is true, then there would be plenty of room for SS. This would, of course, rule out Z/28 as a mass-market car.

If we couple this with participation(and hopefully success) by the Z/28 in major road racing events, history could repeat in a most pleasant way. It also wouldn't hurt to see some Pro-Stock SS cars competing in NHRA events.

 

Fair enough. But just to clarify "niche product", it shouldn't necessarilly be limited availablity, but simply narrowly focused at a specific segment. Historically, cars like these seem to sell at far higher volumes than originally forecast. Case and point: Z06, SRT-4, etc.

Also, I still think a proper Z/28 can be priced far below what a current GT500 goes for.

 

When 4 different cars are given progressive alphanumeric labeling, which is then advertised, it is factually a branding scheme, I would say.

Well, GM obviously will and does take the enthusiasts' opinions very seriously -- they've got FBodyfather here and god knows who else reading these well-stated arguments.

But in a certain sense enthusiasts are the worst people to ask, because they have strongly formed opinions and tend to exhibit self-selection bias.

(I have to say, reading some of this stuff, I get a little worried that if there isn't a Z/28, someone might swallow a shotgun shell. Well, not really, but model labeling is probably not quite as important as some make it out to be.)

That being said, I don't really see any downside to what you're arguing. Unless GM wants to make a clean-break and use an entirely new labeling because of differing associations with the 2nd-4th gen. And that's where the marketing surveys come in -- because people that maybe have never owned a Camaro might think differently than those who have.

That's what I'm getting at -- the rich guy who says "Hey! $45,000 Retro-Camaro. MUST BUY" isn't necessarily represented by the guys who hang out at the track with their 4th gens talking Z/28 versus SS.

 

I think this type of discussion is good in that it challenges assumptions we may take for granted in a Z/28 return. It never hurts to put yourself in someone else's position (such as GM's bean counters) when trying to get a realistic idea of what's going to happen in the near future.

Guy,

First, I don't think you need to dissect Z28 vs. SS in 4th gen to make a business case for a new Z/28. One doesn't have to look too hard at each offering over that period to see why the SS was a bigger hit at a higher pricetag (looks sell in sports cars even if they cost $5000 more). The 4th gen Z28 and ideal 5th gen Z are different cars. If anything the 4th gen Z's poor sales prove only that there is not a market for a bare-bones stripper V8--a V6 body with a bigger engine which is all it really was then. The SS may not have been a lot more, but it looked like it was.

You pointed out in other threads that Camaro's lineup is bare compared to the current Mustang, lacking a variety of offerings. You've made points that it would cost more to market a Z/28 in conjuction with SS. I'm not sure why there is any extra cost involved for marketing, so maybe you can share some details. And if there were costs, what's the difference in marketing a separate Z/28 model versus an option on an SS? Why isn't it an issue for the examples I'll give below?

I'll operate here on some basic assumptions most seem to agree on: SS is the V8 car produced in higher numbers and is for most everyone, Z/28 is limited production and provides more performance for a smaller audience (we'll say it's its own model fwiw). I think it's an overstatement to say that means Z/28 will cost $40K and be a Shelby GT500 competitor. If that is what people are hoping for, I agree that's off-base. If it costs about $5000 over an SS and yields 50 more HP, a stiffer suspension and some other race-inspired features, how is that unachievable?

To me, a formula like this sounds completely natural. It sounds a lot like the highly successful Mustang of recent years that featured base V6, GT, and SVT Cobra. Here are a couple other examples: Impreza RS, Impreza WRX, Impreza WRX STi and Lancer, Lancer Ralliart, Lancer Evolution. Those are a different type of sporty car, sure, but they seem to find the marketing funds to pull it off as much smaller companies while selling fewer cars. I'd say your proposal of a Z/28 package on SS is much like ordering a 350Z with a Nismo package. That may be fine for a new brand like "Nismo", but seems like a recipe for unfulfilled potential for something as strong and recognized as Z/28.

Feel free to correct me, but I don't see the problem (marketing or otherwise) of a lineup including both an SS + Z/28 in same fashion as WRX + WRX STi or Mustang GT + SVT Cobra.

 

I agree on the pricing.

If the hard core Z/28 you outlined a few posts back were to happen, I see sales being beyond niche for a while and then settling a bit lower as some buyers decide they really wanted a more liveable SS.

Win-Win, No?