I never said a long time, I said a month. I tried to read every thread on the first page and a half, and although I probably wasn't successful, the only supported reason I found for the previous Camaro's demise was slow sales and unprofitability. Management statements make it appear that the current vehicle needs to sell a certain minimum number every year to continue receiving support. If there was another metric other than sales/profitability that contributed to the Camaro's "death", and I missed it, I apologize. If GM will be using another metric other than sales/profitability to judge the new car, I would like to know what it is.

I didn't say it would die. I posed what I thought was a rhetorical question. Apparently, it wasn't rhetorical. People here really would rather see the Camaro extinguished than violate historical precedent. My point was that I'm excited about the new Camaro, and I want a V8. If it takes some new thinking by GM to increase sales (like using a hot V6 as a performer rather than a SBC) then I'm okay with that. My attitude can be best described as "Whatever it takes Wagoner.. just keep 'em comin'".

That's true. But it's 2007, not 1967. In 1967 it took a high winding 302 to get 325HP. In 2007 we can do it with 4.0 OHC V6. I'm not living and dying on the idea of a V6 Z28. I'm simply trying to think outside the box.

True. I slapped myself after you pointed it out, and I won't do it again.


All of that is true, and the problem is that I wasn't clear enough with the analogy. I know the M3 is not a Camaro target, and the new M3 is going to be a 400HP V8. All I was saying was that in 2008 GM could come close to replicating the performance of a 2001 M3 for a lot less money. I don't think it would equal it, but it would still be a fairly impressive car. I also thought that a high revving, stiff-legged "race car in street clothes" was what the Z28 was originally about and that it would be kind of neat to replicate that. In my mind, the 2001-2005 M3 kind of defined that niche, so I used it as a performance and price target. GM could get 85% of the performance for 50% of the price. I don't actually expect M3 buyers to consider a Camaro, and vice-versa. I just thought it was an easily recognized benchmark.

Again, I don't believe Chevy should compete against BMW, so let me address the heritage issue. I understand that my suggestions would require a paradigm shift in the Camaro world. That's why I suggested it. I understand that this car pays homage to the '69. That doesn't mean it has to come with a 396 and M-22. This is a brand new car that looks similar to old cars. If GM is interested in changing their image in the market place and appealing to a new audience, this car at this time would be a good place to start. That is the sum total of my suggestion.

This is the part where I get offended. I didn't feel that I was beinbg arrogant. I thought I was suggesting alternative configurations for the new Camaro line-up. The responses to my post consisted of (mostly) "That's not how we do things here". While those arguments, couched professionally, do carry a certain weight that doesn't make my suggestion asinine. I'm sorry if you don't like my thoughts, but there are 5.7 billion people on this planet who don't automatically associate the Z28 with a V8, and I thought it might be nice to sell them some cars too.

This thread was started by a "the Z28 is dead" statement. At some point, GuionM asked if anybody had any suggestions as to how GM could keep the Z28 and SS options alive whilke still making a business case for the new car. I tried to do that. I was told to shut up, and I was told to hurt myself before somebody else did. That sounds like flame to me.

I would be happy to discuss my idea for hours. The car is still 2 years away, so there's time for GM to make decisions and changes. However, the sum total of your argument seems to be that GM did it one way in '67, '74, '81, and '99 so we should do it that way in '09. Again, that argumet does have merit.... but it completely fails to address cost, profiotability, sales targets, market penetration, or platform utilization issues.

If my language made me sound arrogant, please point out the phrases I used that offended you and I'll try to make changes.

As far as "earning my stripes" goes, I wasn't aware that I had to have 5 years of random posts about my favorite color of 1989 IROC under my belt in order to post an opinion and ask for reasoned responses. If the moderators around here feel like I've overstepped my bounds, they'll tell me. Somebeody here asked for responses, and I gave one. The fact that it conflicts with your deeply cherished world view means absolutely nothing to me, so suck it.

Do I want a V6 Z28? No. Do I think GM is going to build one? No. Is a hi-po V6 worth talking about? Yes.

 

Mjolnir ... In regards to the "flames" ... after spending months & months, or even years around here, living, breathing, eating, sleeping, talking Camaro to death, it's easy to quickly jump on people for making such bold statements as "why not make a V6 Z/28?" Don't throw in the towel on CZ28.com just yet ... be careful making "suggestions" like that! ... but people sometimes need to remember that this is a Camaro "Message Board" which is "open for DISCUSSION" .

Slow sales / unprofitable ..... yes, to a degree. BUT, it was equally GM's fault as it was the CAR's and/or the BUYING PUBLIC's fault. GM threw in the towel on the Camaro (and Firebird) early in the 90's. "Poor sales" is GM's excuse for letting the car die. Does the Mustang still sell?? Yup. The market is there ... GM (management) wasn't . There were lots of "contributing factors" from many different angles (one of which also had to do with their desire to close the plant in Ste. Therese where ONLY F-bodies were built ... but contracts with the CAW and Cdn. gov't also played a role).

You're totally on the right track. "Thinking outside the box" ... a V6 performance package for a Camaro ... all great ideas. Does performance only exist from a V8? No! Does it exist in a V6 too? Yeah! But while there are some areas where GM needs to stop "doing it how we always used to", the basic formula of a RWD, V8 powered, 2+2 performance coupe, doesn't need to change . The Mustang has never ceased to deliver this package, and it has always sold well. Just because they "can" make ~300+ HP from a V6, and that "could" be considered "enough" to fit the bill of a Z/28, doesn't mean they should ignore the past OR the present (Mustang) and continue to forge ahead with V8's as their choice of powerplant . Call it heritage, call it what you want ... Mustang has proven there is still a market for a V8 pony car.

 

I'll explain.

Because it doesn't make business sense. It's a waste of brand equity. People will gladly pay more - much more, for a Z/28, especially one that meets their performance expectations.

Also, I'm not so sure of the cost feasibility of a 325 hp V6 for $24,000, especially if it had all the prerequisites of a Z/28 package. It seems that 325 hp (if that in fact is deemed the appropriate number), could be much more cost effectively delivered by a pushrod V8, rather than a very highly tuned, DOHC, V6.

It's one thing to think out of the box. But I simply don't understand the benefits of what you're proposing.

 

I think the Camaro is going to be too big and heavy for an effective Hi-Po V6 to be competetive. While you can get 300hp from one, 350lb/ft torque is another thing...north of 3500lbs, that could hurt performance. Which means a power-adder, or V8.

 

just going to put this out there:

i used to be best friends with the beginner of this thread, and im not saying he is lying because he is only forwarding information... but his "cousin" has always had information and it has never happened... i cant remember specifics, but i also cant remember anything ever actually comming true.

so for the beginner, im not calling bs, but for the cousin, definite bs time and time again. another one for the waiting game.

 

^ ^ ouch!! "Cousin's" credibility down the tubes!!!

Awe, shucks ..... 18 pages of banter over nothing!!!

 

Sorry guys. I didn't abandon the conversation, I've just been very busy.

@Capn Pete- Thanks for the info. I knew that St. Therese was a problem. I guess I just didn't realize that it had affected GM's thought processes that much. It still appears that sales (and therefore profitability) were the biggest reasons for the hiatus, but if what you're saying is correct it appears there are GM internal reasons for not supporting the car as well.

@Z284ever- I agree with your basic assertion that brand equity is very important. As I've said elsewhere I don't think that the entirety of the Camaro target market agrees, but I do think that GM has to be very careful. As far as a 325 horse V6 being feasible, and whether or not you could do it at $24k, I think both of those are very doable. You could probably get to 325 by simply taking the current 3.5 HF out to around 4.0 liters of displacement. That kind of increase in displacement should add torque. You then funnel that added power to the rears through a 6 speed and 3.75:1 (ish) gears. That offsets the weight penalty but allows good cruising economy. Price targets could be hit by (as I stated) chopping interior amenities and options to the bone. Since the Z28 is aimed at racers (and not poseurs) the lack of creature features is not a problem. They want less weight and better handling. If you want a louder stereo buy an SS. The cost for bigger brakes, bigger sway bars, and stiffer springs is offset by lower interior costs, and it doesn't change the labor cost at all. You're already bolting in seats, springs and engines, so you just change what shows up at your workstation during the JIT process.

ANYWAY.... having said all that, please read this. I DO NOT want a 6 cyliinder Z28. I was merely postulating a profitable scenario that allows GM to target specific demographics with (mostly) existing technology. I was simply positing a potential answer to GuionM's question.

I AM A V8, SS SORT OF GUY. I understand AND AGREE WITH the heritage argument. I am eagerly awaiting the new car and I am saving my pennies for a top-dog/street use/straight line biased/tire annihilating/luxury-sport coupe that looks like a '69, goes like a 2009, and is under warranty until 2014.

I may not be the hard-core F-body guy that some of you are, but I will own a 5th gen. I'm waiting for the second year, but it will be a V8 and I plan on choosing the options I like. I don't really care how GM decides to badge it, as long as it sits in my driveway.

I really do apologize if my failure to base my will to live on the configuration of the new Z28 offends some of you. I hope that my desire to own a Camaro, any Camaro, will offset that somewhat. I also hope that there are a lot of buyers that feel like I do.

Remember- the more we sell (of any configuration), the better chance we have of seeing the one we want.

 

I have always thought that an SS and Z28 could co-exist, going under 2 different trim departments. SS gets luxury, Z28 gets sport. I do belive that there should be 3 powertrain options. Be it 1 v6 and 2 v8's, 2 v6 and 1v8, or whatever, I belive that 3 options is a must.

 

This contest only has a couple more days before it is over! Call now or forever hold your peace!

 

HOW THE H#LL did I NOT see this thread! ....

They'd better make it!! That sounds like a bad rumor!.. (following Cap'n Pete's response) Bad credibility...

 

It is! Common man!

 

This thread has been at the top of the "charts" for almost a month ..... and NOW you finally see it?!?!?!

... wow, somebody's got their blinders on!

 

Must be... Damn I'm slow... ... I found out about the new 07 Silverado 2 months late too.

I wonder if I can get my title changed from "Registered User" to Confused User"...

 

Nah, just a Premium Beer Member .

 

My uncle Jim-Bob says they are going to have a Berlinetta and then a Type Lt ! And he works for a dealer washing the cars so he should know.

Just kidding obviously. But I would expect that maybe in a year or two after production of an SS, we may see a special package like Ford does with the Mustang. They are readying a "Bullit 2" and a "Boss" to come out in the next 2 years. We may see a Z28 depending on the market to compete a bit.

JOHN