The Sad News
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Oakland, California
Just went over every post I've made, and nowhere have I said or implied that the SS350 Camaro was a serious performance car. I said the SS350 was rated 5 horses more than the Z28, in response to the thought that the Z28 was the top car GM offered. I pointed out that not only the Corvette and Trans Am, but other Camaros had better parts and more performance.
Z28 was a great all round package. It had a lightweight high content V8 engine, a very good handling package, a close ratio transmission, and for it's day was targeted to guys like me who place a bit more emphasis on track-like handling than having the quickest things on the streets (there were plenty of hardware on the strrets back then that'd put the Z28 on a trailer).
Z28 was a great all round package. It had a lightweight high content V8 engine, a very good handling package, a close ratio transmission, and for it's day was targeted to guys like me who place a bit more emphasis on track-like handling than having the quickest things on the streets (there were plenty of hardware on the strrets back then that'd put the Z28 on a trailer).
Have you ever heard of the L30/M20 Camaros? (Few have.) Basically by combining RPOs L30 (275HP 327cid) and M20 (Perf. 4speed) in 1967 you got a SS350 in sheep's clothing. Basically the same traction bar as the SS350 (Z/28's was slightly different) and almost all the performance with no badging. In fact it was not uncommon in 1968 for guys to order a brand new L30/M20, pull the drive train from their '67 Z/28 and take that trans am racing. In fact that is exactly what happened to Z/28 #1. Its drive train was pulled and the mellower 327/4spd combo put in and it was returned to street duty as a plain Jane.
http://www.camaros.org/l30m20.shtml
http://www.1967z28.com/gallery/fullr...moore-main.htm
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From: Chicagoland IL
I feel you are thinking of a Camaro SS that's going to be much like the current Impala SS which GMPD invested little development. However by all indications, the next Camaro SS is soing to be much like the GXP & Cobalt SS in that it's going to have alot of development time on the track.
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I seriously doubt it and here's the reasons why.
1. The car uses a Z06 or blown LS* engine.
The Z06 engine wholesales about $8-10K more than regular LS* engines. A supercharger about half of that. Those engines also need to recoupe development costs. The engines themselves may pass all requirements, but there's going to be costs in certifying these engines in this particular car. If we're lucky, that $4-5K and $8-10K in increased cost will hold, but that's a big "IF".
2. What volumes will it sell at?
The lower the volume, the higher the price. The higher the price the lower the volume. If the car has a unique engine, it's going to be relatively more expensive than using a regular Camaro engine.... which again treds into SS territory. GM is going to base the case of any "special" models on the low end of sales potential. That is the industry standard, as pointed out with the SRT-4, the Z06, and quite a few other cars. Ford purposely keeps production of their special Mustangs (Cobra, Bullitt, Mach1) low to keep value up. Again, the volume performance car is going to be the SS, and we're probally looking around 30 grand (just like the last ones).
3. What will be standard?
No one makes stripped performance cars anymore because they don't sell. Been proven over and over again. 4th gen Z28, Mustang GTS, GM's market survey ahead of the Z06 that showed the car would be a disaster if it stayed a "No-Frills" performance car. People who tend to buy top performance cars tend to want it loaded. WS6 Trans Ams cost nearly 33K, and was the best selling Firebird in the end. Orders for the dirt cheap Formula made the GTO look like it was blazing the sales charts. Chevy sold more $28K+ than they did sub-$23K Z28s, even though with discounts, you could get a base LS1 Z28 for under $20K towards the end (they based at just $23K!). So a Z28 would be loaded. With no other changes, and using the 4th gen SS as a basis, that means about $30-32K without inflation in 2002 dollars. More likely, we're talking about $32-35K fully loaded. Throw in a unique engine, and we're easily touching $40K.
On the other hand, a Camaro SS with a Z28 performance package would be much like the historic 70s era Trans Am with the WS6 performance package. It included essentially a track level handling package, 4 wheel disc brakes, a slightly different engine tune. Save the brakes (the Brembos is a great idea), and maybe a pair of headers and unique tailpipes, it would still make Z28 an affordable, historically accurate, and still identifiable (and well known) package that IMO would be very easy to sell even to the most conservative money guy at GM.
Again, I'd prefer an alternative to this. But I don't think the Z28 name should be on a GT500 competitor. Even if it's a grand or 2 less that the GT500, it's still far above what I'd be willing to pay for ANY Camaro. As pointed out, I'd buy a used Z06 first before any Camaro that cost over $30-32 grand.
Although I love the new GT500, but IMO Ford walked away from a huge chunk of market moving the SVT Mustang upscale from the low $30Ks to $40K. I could by a new Cobra had I chosen to. I will not buy a GT500. Price is the reason. Dealers are making a bad situation worse by scalping like mad (if anyone doesn't think Chevy dealers won't do the same, try reducing the dosage of whatever you're taking).
I think it wouldn't be wise for the same to happen with the Z28 name.
1. The car uses a Z06 or blown LS* engine.
The Z06 engine wholesales about $8-10K more than regular LS* engines. A supercharger about half of that. Those engines also need to recoupe development costs. The engines themselves may pass all requirements, but there's going to be costs in certifying these engines in this particular car. If we're lucky, that $4-5K and $8-10K in increased cost will hold, but that's a big "IF".
2. What volumes will it sell at?
The lower the volume, the higher the price. The higher the price the lower the volume. If the car has a unique engine, it's going to be relatively more expensive than using a regular Camaro engine.... which again treds into SS territory. GM is going to base the case of any "special" models on the low end of sales potential. That is the industry standard, as pointed out with the SRT-4, the Z06, and quite a few other cars. Ford purposely keeps production of their special Mustangs (Cobra, Bullitt, Mach1) low to keep value up. Again, the volume performance car is going to be the SS, and we're probally looking around 30 grand (just like the last ones).
3. What will be standard?
No one makes stripped performance cars anymore because they don't sell. Been proven over and over again. 4th gen Z28, Mustang GTS, GM's market survey ahead of the Z06 that showed the car would be a disaster if it stayed a "No-Frills" performance car. People who tend to buy top performance cars tend to want it loaded. WS6 Trans Ams cost nearly 33K, and was the best selling Firebird in the end. Orders for the dirt cheap Formula made the GTO look like it was blazing the sales charts. Chevy sold more $28K+ than they did sub-$23K Z28s, even though with discounts, you could get a base LS1 Z28 for under $20K towards the end (they based at just $23K!). So a Z28 would be loaded. With no other changes, and using the 4th gen SS as a basis, that means about $30-32K without inflation in 2002 dollars. More likely, we're talking about $32-35K fully loaded. Throw in a unique engine, and we're easily touching $40K.
On the other hand, a Camaro SS with a Z28 performance package would be much like the historic 70s era Trans Am with the WS6 performance package. It included essentially a track level handling package, 4 wheel disc brakes, a slightly different engine tune. Save the brakes (the Brembos is a great idea), and maybe a pair of headers and unique tailpipes, it would still make Z28 an affordable, historically accurate, and still identifiable (and well known) package that IMO would be very easy to sell even to the most conservative money guy at GM.
Again, I'd prefer an alternative to this. But I don't think the Z28 name should be on a GT500 competitor. Even if it's a grand or 2 less that the GT500, it's still far above what I'd be willing to pay for ANY Camaro. As pointed out, I'd buy a used Z06 first before any Camaro that cost over $30-32 grand.
Although I love the new GT500, but IMO Ford walked away from a huge chunk of market moving the SVT Mustang upscale from the low $30Ks to $40K. I could by a new Cobra had I chosen to. I will not buy a GT500. Price is the reason. Dealers are making a bad situation worse by scalping like mad (if anyone doesn't think Chevy dealers won't do the same, try reducing the dosage of whatever you're taking).
I think it wouldn't be wise for the same to happen with the Z28 name.
Boy, you like to type dude.
First off, the likelyhood of an LS7 getting into a Camaro are remote. For a number of reasons, including cost, production capacity, and the probability that it simply won't be around by then. Rumors are circulating about some version of the LS9/LSA, however there may be some issues which may keep that out of Camaro. And to be honest, I'm not looking for the Z/28 to be a GT500 clone. It just plain doesn't hit the bullseye for me.
More than likely, we'll get some version of the 6.2L LS3. Perhaps even a version just as highly tuned, (per cubic inch,that is) as the LS7....but based nevertheless, on the LS3. Right there alone, the production costs would be THOUSANDS less than the GT500 - and give, IMHO, a much nicer all around performance package.
As for the rest. I'm not sure if that's aimed at me or if you've got alot of time on your hands today.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Word I'm getting on the subject.
I don't post as much here as I used to.... so when I do......
Yep. A blower is far more likely.
But don't you think you might be talking about what is planned as an SS? According to LeNeve, SS will no longer share an engine with another model on a particular vehicle line.
No not aimed at you. Just challenging everyone.
Like I said, I prefer a Z28 much in the same vein as the last one: a low priced stealth car that handles and accelerates like mad without looking the part. But there's obviously barely enough people like me to hold a card game, let alone make a car like that worthwhile. Don't get me wrong, if an SS is a great car at a decent price, I'd buy it if it was the best value on the market.
But the idea of a Z28 moving upmarket (even if it's priced at $35K) isn't worth it to me unless it has a very clear & wide performance gap with the SS. The only way I see that happening is with GM moving the price up to $40K to make it worthwhile.
I don't post as much here as I used to.... so when I do......
First off, the likelyhood of an LS7 getting into a Camaro are remote.
More than likely, we'll get some version of the 6.2L LS3. Perhaps even a version just as highly tuned, (per cubic inch,that is) as the LS7....but based nevertheless, on the LS3. Right there alone, the production costs would be THOUSANDS less than the GT500 - and give, IMHO, a much nicer all around performance package.
As for the rest. I'm not sure if that's aimed at me or if you've got alot of time on your hands today.
Like I said, I prefer a Z28 much in the same vein as the last one: a low priced stealth car that handles and accelerates like mad without looking the part. But there's obviously barely enough people like me to hold a card game, let alone make a car like that worthwhile. Don't get me wrong, if an SS is a great car at a decent price, I'd buy it if it was the best value on the market.
But the idea of a Z28 moving upmarket (even if it's priced at $35K) isn't worth it to me unless it has a very clear & wide performance gap with the SS. The only way I see that happening is with GM moving the price up to $40K to make it worthwhile.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Shifting gears here a little bit, how about a Z28 based on the Mustang Bullitt model?
Instead of a base model Z28 that looked identical to a V6 save 3 badges and a pair of un-noticable tailpipes, how about a bit more dress up??
Mustang Bullitt was essentially cosmetics from Ford's Performance Catalogue with a pair of cool seats. There was a different engine tune and slightly different brakes and new rims.
The whole package package I'm guessing probally set Ford back $500 per car, $800 absolute max. But they sold them at $3K over the Mustang GT, making essentially a killing on each one they sold.
Instead of a base model Z28 that looked identical to a V6 save 3 badges and a pair of un-noticable tailpipes, how about a bit more dress up??
Mustang Bullitt was essentially cosmetics from Ford's Performance Catalogue with a pair of cool seats. There was a different engine tune and slightly different brakes and new rims.
The whole package package I'm guessing probally set Ford back $500 per car, $800 absolute max. But they sold them at $3K over the Mustang GT, making essentially a killing on each one they sold.
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From: Hebron, KY
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Does your office have a phone?
Or do you communicate through Morse Code?
Trust me, you will want to hear the episode we release tomorrow morning.
It is still partially about the topic of this thread.
Trust me, you will want to hear the episode we release tomorrow morning.
It is still partially about the topic of this thread.
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From: Nashville, TN area
Well, I don't think enough people have quite given our Podcast a fair listen much less take less than one minute to interact with it or a few minutes to tune in once a week. We have been doing the show for well over a year, we are offering a way to really get people voices heard, literally. We are not sure why more people don't take us up on that offer considering that it is a direct line to us as well as all our our listeners, and there are hundreds each week.
This hot topic here is also a hot one with us, and since it is so prominent right now, we thought that people might want to merge their thoughts here with our thoughts in the show.
That's all.
This hot topic here is also a hot one with us, and since it is so prominent right now, we thought that people might want to merge their thoughts here with our thoughts in the show.
That's all.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Like I said, I prefer a Z28 much in the same vein as the last one: a low priced stealth car that handles and accelerates like mad without looking the part. But there's obviously barely enough people like me to hold a card game, let alone make a car like that worthwhile. Don't get me wrong, if an SS is a great car at a decent price, I'd buy it if it was the best value on the market.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Well, Most all Z28s I can think of had hardware over looks.
The 1st gen Z28 was low keyed (labels and an optional hood) as was the 2nd gen prior to it's return in '77 1/2 (rims and badging). Compared to the later IROC and the ricer wing on the Z28's 2nd return from the dead, the early 3rd gen Z28 was relatively low keyed next to other Z28s.
Sounds to me like the Mustang LX 5.0 stole the Z28's formula.
The 1st gen Z28 was low keyed (labels and an optional hood) as was the 2nd gen prior to it's return in '77 1/2 (rims and badging). Compared to the later IROC and the ricer wing on the Z28's 2nd return from the dead, the early 3rd gen Z28 was relatively low keyed next to other Z28s.
Sounds to me like the Mustang LX 5.0 stole the Z28's formula.
