What price points for different F5 models would you like?
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by IZ28
And you must have not read the stuff I posted so many times.
It had the emblems, it had the RPO. Where was the Z28 emblem on the SS?? Where was the Z28's hood and different looks from a base car?? Don't try to say that the IROC did whatever to the Z28 when it was clear that is what the car was. IROC was a new add-on to the Z28 name. When the Z28 was gone the IROC-Z was still an upgraded Z28, that was the only choice. The SS never had anything to do with a Z28 and was made for a different purpose until it was brought back in the 4th Gen all of a sudden to make the Z28 look like a piece by adding "SS" emblems on it and making the Z28 a boring looking base V8.
If they made an IROC-SS, would it still be an SS?? I think so. If they then took away the regular SS and offered only an IROC-SS, would that now mean it's not an SS?? I think not. *DOH*
And you must have not read the stuff I posted so many times.
It had the emblems, it had the RPO. Where was the Z28 emblem on the SS?? Where was the Z28's hood and different looks from a base car?? Don't try to say that the IROC did whatever to the Z28 when it was clear that is what the car was. IROC was a new add-on to the Z28 name. When the Z28 was gone the IROC-Z was still an upgraded Z28, that was the only choice. The SS never had anything to do with a Z28 and was made for a different purpose until it was brought back in the 4th Gen all of a sudden to make the Z28 look like a piece by adding "SS" emblems on it and making the Z28 a boring looking base V8.If they made an IROC-SS, would it still be an SS?? I think so. If they then took away the regular SS and offered only an IROC-SS, would that now mean it's not an SS?? I think not. *DOH*
You're never going to get it... you're never going to understand.
I, personally, have no problem with the IROC-Z, what I have a problem with is the non-factual IROC-Z "facts" you create and pass off as true and legitimate.
I also have a problem that it is OK in your "3rd Gen world" that IROC-Z literally disposed of the Z28 name, something that SS did not do in the 4th Gen, but it was not as damaging in the 3rd Gen perfect world???? C'Mon, it KILLED OFF the Z28!
It is fine for you to live in a fantasy world regarding this stuff, but it's not OK to make sweeping statements on incorrect "facts".
Others have posted the same thing I have mentioned, and even other good points, so I'm not the only one who sees this. Besides you and Z284ever, I have yet to see anyone support your view on this. I have a feeling z284ever's friend Steve may, but I'm not so sure on anyone else.
Maybve I'm setting myself up to be hung here by calling out peopel to argue against me, but so be it.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Others have posted the same thing I have mentioned, and even other good points, so I'm not the only one who sees this. Besides you and Z284ever, I have yet to see anyone support your view on this. I have a feeling z284ever's friend Steve may, but I'm not so sure on anyone else.
Others have posted the same thing I have mentioned, and even other good points, so I'm not the only one who sees this. Besides you and Z284ever, I have yet to see anyone support your view on this. I have a feeling z284ever's friend Steve may, but I'm not so sure on anyone else.
1) When the IROC-Z came out...I was there. Chevy and their representatives described it as the "ultimate Z/28.
2) I thought the IROC racing series was stupid.
3) IROC did eventually replace the Z/28.
4) The "Z" in IROC-Z, stands for Z/28.
5) I was glad when Chevy dumped the IROC series after 1990.
6) The 4th gen SS started out as a Z/28.
7)The 4th gen SS prevented the Z/28 from getting desirable things like wheels, etc.
8) The 4th gen SS created great harm for Z/28.......far greater than IROC.
That's it. What is there to argue about?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19
Anything under $30K to start with is going to be a dream guys!
Heck, buy the time it does actually come out, it may be anything under $35K!
If you want a $2xK performance car, you'll have to get a Caviler/Sunfire with a Eaton blower on it or a Saturn Redline.
Heck, buy the time it does actually come out, it may be anything under $35K!
If you want a $2xK performance car, you'll have to get a Caviler/Sunfire with a Eaton blower on it or a Saturn Redline.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by Z284ever
Darth...I don't want to argue....but maybe I should calarify my stance.
1) When the IROC-Z came out...I was there. Chevy and their representatives described it as the "ultimate Z/28.
2) I thought the IROC racing series was stupid.
3) IROC did eventually replace the Z/28.
4) The "Z" in IROC-Z, stands for Z/28.
5) I was glad when Chevy dumped the IROC series after 1990.
6) The 4th gen SS started out as a Z/28.
7)The 4th gen SS prevented the Z/28 from getting desirable things like wheels, etc.
8) The 4th gen SS created great harm for Z/28.......far greater than IROC.
That's it. What is there to argue about?
Darth...I don't want to argue....but maybe I should calarify my stance.
1) When the IROC-Z came out...I was there. Chevy and their representatives described it as the "ultimate Z/28.
2) I thought the IROC racing series was stupid.
3) IROC did eventually replace the Z/28.
4) The "Z" in IROC-Z, stands for Z/28.
5) I was glad when Chevy dumped the IROC series after 1990.
6) The 4th gen SS started out as a Z/28.
7)The 4th gen SS prevented the Z/28 from getting desirable things like wheels, etc.
8) The 4th gen SS created great harm for Z/28.......far greater than IROC.
That's it. What is there to argue about?
My only disagreements with you are points 7 and 8...
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by Z284ever
...2) I thought the IROC racing series was stupid.
...2) I thought the IROC racing series was stupid.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Originally posted by Darth Xed
You and I are no where near as far apart and IZ28 and I are...
My only disagreements with you are points 7 and 8...
You and I are no where near as far apart and IZ28 and I are...
My only disagreements with you are points 7 and 8...
The IROC-Z was obviously a Z28 while SS took everything away from the Z28, thats the difference and what we're trying to say. And yeah I agree that the Z28 never should have been taking away and had just the IROC-Z28 and RS available, (I still don't know why that was done, base Z28's sold good) but since they were basically the same thing except 1 was better, it didn't really matter that much.
Last edited by IZ28; Aug 6, 2003 at 01:15 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Originally posted by ArrestMeRedZ
You quoted me, now read what I wrote again. Don't quote me, change what I wrote to what you misinterpreted, then give me grief. And since you accuse me of posting B.S. (it wasn't), that comes close to a personal attack, so does that make the first part of my post wrong in your eyes also?
This is what I finished with: "Ok, they were [speaking of a '67 or '68 being available to the general public], but limited #'s plus nobody knowing what they were restricted availability."[emphasis added].
Do you know how many '67 and '68 Zs were produced? Not a lot. I was a car nut at the time, and the '69s were out before I realized what a Z/28 was. You had as good of a shot at getting a B4C Special Service Coupe in 2002 (better, because you could search the Internet) than a Z/28 in '67.
You quoted me, now read what I wrote again. Don't quote me, change what I wrote to what you misinterpreted, then give me grief. And since you accuse me of posting B.S. (it wasn't), that comes close to a personal attack, so does that make the first part of my post wrong in your eyes also?
This is what I finished with: "Ok, they were [speaking of a '67 or '68 being available to the general public], but limited #'s plus nobody knowing what they were restricted availability."[emphasis added].
Do you know how many '67 and '68 Zs were produced? Not a lot. I was a car nut at the time, and the '69s were out before I realized what a Z/28 was. You had as good of a shot at getting a B4C Special Service Coupe in 2002 (better, because you could search the Internet) than a Z/28 in '67.
What are you talking about... I didn't change your quote one iota.In 1967 there were 602 Z/28's
In 1968 there were 7,199 Z/28's plus one "special" one-off convertible built especially for Pete Estes. (Yes it still survives today.)
While the 67's were snatched up by racers at first, they were available for anyone to purchase for the most part.
The following excerpt is from Michael Lamm's book...
Chevrolet didn't especially encourage the purchase of Z-28's by private individuals at advertising the Camaro Z-28 until 1968.
The first 25 Z-28's were built between Dec. 29, 1966 and Jan. 12, 1967. These went strictly to favored dealers, mostly for reworking as all-out competition cars. Z-28 #1 was shipped to Aero Chevrolet in Alexandria, Va., where it was groomed as Johnny Moore's entry in the Daytona 24-hour Continental. Cars #2, #3, and #4 went to Yenko Chevrolet, Canonsburg, Pa., for driver Ben Poster, also for Daytona.
Seattle dealer Alan Green received Z-28's #5 through #7, reselling one to a Daytona, Fla., dealer, one to a local Northwest dealer, and the third to a local customer. That means that Z-28 #7 was probably the first to fall into private hands. Many people believe that the 1967 Z-28 didn't debut until late in the model year, but that simply isn't true. A few were in private hands by Feb. 1, 1967.
Ron Tonkin, a Chevrolet dealer in Portland, Ore., ordered Z-28 #8 and placed it on his Beaver Racing Team, which ran mostly West Coast events. After careful preparation, it was involved in an accident while being trailered to its first race. That ended its competition career.
Nickey Chevrolet in Chicago, which went into racing in a big way (e.g. putting 427's into Camaros for the dragstrip), took delivery of Z-28's #9-#10-#11. Two of these ran at Daytona along with the Aero and Yenko cars.
Roger Penske acquired the 12th Z-28, his friend George Wintersteen picking it up at the factory on Jan. 10, 1967 and driving it back to Penske's Chevrolet agency cy in Reading, Pa. Penske immediately tore down the car and sent the engine to Traco in his push toward entering Daytona.
The next eight Z's went to a variety of customers, including three shipped to other GM divisions and one sold to a GM Proving Grounds engineer named David D. Horchler. Car #21 was delivered to stunt driver Joie Chitwood in Tampa, Fla. Chitwood raced the car and has subsequently used Camaros in all his thrill shows ever since.
In Chevrolet's rush to get the first Z28's out to the races, the first 16 1967 Z28's used a 4-P body to get the cars to the Daytona race on time. The 4-L body style code was used after the first ordered Z28's were shipped out.
The 1967 Z28 was responsible for a long term race relationship with the Z28 and Vince Piggins of Chevrolet. The Penske/Donohue race team was largely responsible for bringing many heavy-duty race parts to the Chevrolet dealers' parts counters. Any part used on the racing Z28's had to be made available to the public.
The first 25 Z-28's were built between Dec. 29, 1966 and Jan. 12, 1967. These went strictly to favored dealers, mostly for reworking as all-out competition cars. Z-28 #1 was shipped to Aero Chevrolet in Alexandria, Va., where it was groomed as Johnny Moore's entry in the Daytona 24-hour Continental. Cars #2, #3, and #4 went to Yenko Chevrolet, Canonsburg, Pa., for driver Ben Poster, also for Daytona.
Seattle dealer Alan Green received Z-28's #5 through #7, reselling one to a Daytona, Fla., dealer, one to a local Northwest dealer, and the third to a local customer. That means that Z-28 #7 was probably the first to fall into private hands. Many people believe that the 1967 Z-28 didn't debut until late in the model year, but that simply isn't true. A few were in private hands by Feb. 1, 1967.
Ron Tonkin, a Chevrolet dealer in Portland, Ore., ordered Z-28 #8 and placed it on his Beaver Racing Team, which ran mostly West Coast events. After careful preparation, it was involved in an accident while being trailered to its first race. That ended its competition career.
Nickey Chevrolet in Chicago, which went into racing in a big way (e.g. putting 427's into Camaros for the dragstrip), took delivery of Z-28's #9-#10-#11. Two of these ran at Daytona along with the Aero and Yenko cars.
Roger Penske acquired the 12th Z-28, his friend George Wintersteen picking it up at the factory on Jan. 10, 1967 and driving it back to Penske's Chevrolet agency cy in Reading, Pa. Penske immediately tore down the car and sent the engine to Traco in his push toward entering Daytona.
The next eight Z's went to a variety of customers, including three shipped to other GM divisions and one sold to a GM Proving Grounds engineer named David D. Horchler. Car #21 was delivered to stunt driver Joie Chitwood in Tampa, Fla. Chitwood raced the car and has subsequently used Camaros in all his thrill shows ever since.
In Chevrolet's rush to get the first Z28's out to the races, the first 16 1967 Z28's used a 4-P body to get the cars to the Daytona race on time. The 4-L body style code was used after the first ordered Z28's were shipped out.
The 1967 Z28 was responsible for a long term race relationship with the Z28 and Vince Piggins of Chevrolet. The Penske/Donohue race team was largely responsible for bringing many heavy-duty race parts to the Chevrolet dealers' parts counters. Any part used on the racing Z28's had to be made available to the public.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
For what its worth (less than 2¢ actually)... I'm a huge SS fan.
My favorite Camaros of all time are the 67-69 SS 396. My ultimate Camaro (money no object) is the 1967 RS/SS 396 convertible... especially the Indy Pace Car.
In my lifetime, I've never had an SS myself though. My first Camaro was a Rally Sport, my second a Z/28 and my latest also a Rally Sport.
Still I feel that as the Z/28 represents Chevrolet's Trans Am racing heritage, that it should remain the top handling Camaro. That should not go to the SS.
I know Chevrolet is pushing the SS-series as its top-of-the-line performance package, but as they have yet to force it on Corvette, why then does it need to continue on Camaro?
While I may want the top F-5 Camaro to be called Z/28 (slash or no-slash) that doesn't make me an SS hater, nor am I jealous of the SS because I don't have one. (I will admit that I was pissed at my Chevy dealer when the SS was announced within two months of buying my 95 Z/28.)
When the Camaro comes back, I will buy the top-of the line V8 coupe, whether its called Z/28, SS or whatever will not make one difference to me.
I just wanted to clear the air on that.
My favorite Camaros of all time are the 67-69 SS 396. My ultimate Camaro (money no object) is the 1967 RS/SS 396 convertible... especially the Indy Pace Car.
In my lifetime, I've never had an SS myself though. My first Camaro was a Rally Sport, my second a Z/28 and my latest also a Rally Sport.
Still I feel that as the Z/28 represents Chevrolet's Trans Am racing heritage, that it should remain the top handling Camaro. That should not go to the SS.
I know Chevrolet is pushing the SS-series as its top-of-the-line performance package, but as they have yet to force it on Corvette, why then does it need to continue on Camaro?
While I may want the top F-5 Camaro to be called Z/28 (slash or no-slash) that doesn't make me an SS hater, nor am I jealous of the SS because I don't have one. (I will admit that I was pissed at my Chevy dealer when the SS was announced within two months of buying my 95 Z/28.)
When the Camaro comes back, I will buy the top-of the line V8 coupe, whether its called Z/28, SS or whatever will not make one difference to me.
I just wanted to clear the air on that.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20
From: Las Vegas
jg95z28
Sounds like we are a lot closer on opinions than I originally thought. I still think it was tough to get the '67s and '68s unless you were very well informed, but I was way off on what I thought the production numbers of the '68 were. And my local dealer did have 11 B4Cs turned back from a local police department (6 "dissapeared"), so I could have bought as many as I wanted if I had the cash.
I totally agree that the top road race Camaro should be the Z, and the top drag car the SS. As to the 4th Generations, IMHO the early SSs (LT1s and
LT4s) were SLPs best work. I think they cashed in on marketing for the LS1 SSs, and should have offered more for the price. Especially in the later years when they minimized suspension upgrades unless you ordered the 1LE package.
Sounds like we are a lot closer on opinions than I originally thought. I still think it was tough to get the '67s and '68s unless you were very well informed, but I was way off on what I thought the production numbers of the '68 were. And my local dealer did have 11 B4Cs turned back from a local police department (6 "dissapeared"), so I could have bought as many as I wanted if I had the cash.
I totally agree that the top road race Camaro should be the Z, and the top drag car the SS. As to the 4th Generations, IMHO the early SSs (LT1s and
LT4s) were SLPs best work. I think they cashed in on marketing for the LS1 SSs, and should have offered more for the price. Especially in the later years when they minimized suspension upgrades unless you ordered the 1LE package.
Last edited by ArrestMeRedZ; Aug 6, 2003 at 08:57 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Originally posted by ArrestMeRedZ
jg95z28
Sounds like we are a lot closer on opinions than I originally thought. ...
I totally agree that the top road race Camaro should be the Z, and the top drag car the SS. As to the 4th Generations, IMHO the early SSs (LT1s and LT4s) were SLPs best work. I think they cashed in on marketing for the LS1 SSs, and should have offered more for the price. Especially in the later years when they minimized suspension upgrades unless you ordered the 1LE package.
jg95z28
Sounds like we are a lot closer on opinions than I originally thought. ...
I totally agree that the top road race Camaro should be the Z, and the top drag car the SS. As to the 4th Generations, IMHO the early SSs (LT1s and
LT4s) were SLPs best work. I think they cashed in on marketing for the LS1 SSs, and should have offered more for the price. Especially in the later years when they minimized suspension upgrades unless you ordered the 1LE package.
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