The 3rd gen does feel crisper, and by every account it does handle better.

Bringing the F-body down to 185-187" long IMHO will cure alot of the F-body's problem with the public. The interior room of the 4th gen was just fine in itself, but was downright ridiculous in a car that takes up nearly as much real estate as a Chrysler 300 (I kid you not). The 4th gen interior in a smaller package would be just right IMO.

But as far as the rest of the formula, I think it's the same for both cars. There's probally a load of truth to it since Camaro used Mustang's formula, and the new Mustang took a little of Camaro's.

 

[can open - worms everywhere again]


I'll go along with "the crisper "feeling" but once again...no...they do not handle better by EVERY account.

Ask the 3rd gens I beat again at last week's autocross.

And also once again...yes...I owned a 3rd gen for 5 years. Bought it new.


Feeling crisper does not directly correlate to a better handling car just as a tire inflated to 50 psi will feel crisper but offer less grip than one inflated to a proper (lower) level.


[/can open - worms everywhere again]

 

a true post
3rd gens do compare though
if they were able to be had with 17x9.5 wheels (like ws6 and ss 4th gens) and decent tires (fitted factory with gatorbacks) it wouldn't be as big a gap (which to say, isn't very much in the first place)

i claim no bias to this statement as i have 1 of each generation

 

A good post.

3rd Gens do feel more reponsive and turn in/out better stock, I know that's what you meant by every account, and not ride. Ride is better in 4th's, although the early Berlinetta's with the soft ride suspension were said to be pretty smooth too. To the other guy, it doesn't matter if you beat them last weekend, compare 3rd Gen records to 4th Gens overall in the classes, they've been real successful for a long time whether being driven by pros or not. You can make a 4th Gen handle great, but 3rds are the true Camaro handlers right from the factory. I haven't felt another car with such ease of manuverability. That was the first performance priority of 3rd Gens when they were being designed, all-out turning ability without compromise. (lousy economy helped such focus)

I agree with those dimensions also Guion, it would put the Camaro right around 1st Gen Camaro and early 3rd Gen Z28 size, which I feel is definetly where it should be. 3rd's were also a little roomier, but I feel a less aggressive rake like they had could help compared to the 4ths extreme rake.

I also agree with Camaros and M*stangs influencing each other over the years. Competition brings the best out of cars.

 

Why in the ^%$& are we STILL arguing the merits of 3rd Gen vs. 4th Gen?

 

Someone else brought up the handling thing. I'm primarily wanting to discuss 5th Gen stuff and improvements that should happen on it. (for example, not a M*stang with a Chevrolet emblem especially)

 

You did...

Just for clarification I race on 16 inch wheels not 17s and have posted results from National autocross events before but you've ignored them.

I love 3rd gens as well as 4th gens (especially having owned one of each) and am not out to dog them or any of their owners BUT why don't you ever discuss the front suspension flaws endemic to the 3rd gen that make it "feel" so racy? Do some research with regard to stiction in the modified Macpherson strut arrangement that is used.

I get a little tired of broken record opinions that are offered up as fact. How much competition experience do you have in each of these cars anyway?

Your preference is just that, your preference. It's not better, it's not right. It's just your preference.

You're absolutely right with regard to sticking to the topic. That's my fault. I'll drop the issue, shut up, and return to lurking now. Sorry everyone.

 

First off, I did not bring up the handling thing, go back and read. It was first mentioned by Guion, contested by unvc92camarors, who I agreed with. Please know what you're talking about before quoting. We've had alot of good of info on this stuff before and I think we can all basically agree that both have thier own advantages and disadvantages/characteristics. There's no need to go through it again, it's almost like Z28 vs. SS, I was agreeing with someone else and gave my opinion. I would much rather discuss 5th Gen, which is why I'm leaving this at that.

Lets please, get back to 5th Gen talk.

 

Either way, the 5th gen needs to outhandle all past Fbodies.

 

that's a lofty goal i think, but doable

 

I dont see it being that hard? If its built on a Corvette-like chassis with hydroframed rails, it will be very stiff but light. If its on the larger Zeta, I still think that it could fair better with IRS.
It needs to handle well so that even V6 owners can still have fun when driving. If its on this Beta/Torana chassis, I think we could get a very agile car.

 

didn't giuonm say that it could have 2 different suspension setups? i wonder if he meant different types or different settings on one system. you guys talk about the hydroform, but remember, weren't we told the base v-8 would be just above 23k?

 

Build it on whichever chassis you want... just BUILD IT! And soon. The SmartBuy on my 04 GTO is up in Sept. 06. I like this car, and it is the closest thing to a F-body we can buy today.
I'm 45 years old and my first car was a 7-year-old 69 Camaro (350-2bbl, powerglide, 4-wheel drum brakes, orange/black vinyl... and felt light as a feather compared to any other f-body I've ever owned); traded it for a 74 Camaro (major piece of crap; pre-electronic ignition, pre-converter, vaper-locking junk); traded for a new 79 Berlinetta (okay car.... I remember wanting a Ralley Sport, but the Berlinetta came with more of the stuff I wanted as standard equipment... $7200 out the door); sold the 79 and bought a new 84 Z-28 L69 (this car created quite a stir with amazing 190 hp); traded for 86 Z-28 with TPI 305 (bright blue metallic... great looking car!); next up was a white/grey 87 Firebird Formula (still the best looking F-body ever, in my opinion); next was a well-used 88 Formula 350 (black on black!) and then a bit of a gap to my next f-body, a 2000 Firebird V-6 (trying to be responsible in my old age!); that car was really nice and tight, but needed another 100 hp or so, so I traded it for a 01 Formula. Also a nice tight car with great power. This is when I decided that I had reached a point in my life that I deserved a BMW (I know, I know) and went over the edge with a $40,000 2004 330Ci. Back to the fold with my new 2004 GTO (torque rules!).
All that said, I would like a car about the size and weight of the 330Ci (and at least close to that nice of an interior) with a trunk (not a hatch), a small (<6 liter) pushrod V-8 with good low-end torque, 6-speed auto and no boy-racer styling (i.e. GTO's wing!). I guess what I want is like the current GTO with a little better exterior styling, a bit tidier dimensions, lighter weight, better gas mileage, and an MSRP in the $25 to $28,000 range. And a few more options (any options!) so that you can equip one for low range (manual HVAC, cloth seats, etc.) and high-end (electronic HVAC, leather, etc.). One last thing; don't make nice, liveable and comfortable exclusive from power. Pisses me off that the only way to get power is to live with a buckboard ride and tack-on styling crap.

 

Good post routesixtysixer. GTO is the car that probally comes closest to what I'd buy right now. A roomy, well built, very quick RWD coupe that can handle without sacrificing ride. Mustang is a very close 2nd only because the GTO is structurally a tank and I won't see myself coming and going a few months after I buy one. Mustang does have a better price and aftermarket though.

Well, let me put it this way:

Holden has an AWD system with a front suspension setup it's using on it's current cars. It's current cars have front struts across the board.

That front part of the AWD system will also be on their next cars, which won't have struts across the board (you don't think the did that whole AWD system for a lame duck car, do you?).

It's been established that the "Zeta" will be modular, meaning that there's plenty of room to mix and match components and structure parts.

A very, very similar system is under the front end of the new Cadillac STS with AWD, which is a "Sigma" chassis.

So Holden has an AWD system that can fit under front ends where Struts, or even more sophisticated front suspension resides.

3rd gen Camaros carried struts in the same space occupied by the later 4th gen's "other than struts" front suspension.

Hope that clears it up for ya.