Originally Posted by Hoodshaker

That being said, I believe is was partially the fbodies all out commoitment to performance that played a major role in the decrease of sales

Originally Posted by IZ28

I think some of the mentioned views are really flawed.

The early Third Gens sold so much because they did the usual things that M*stangs didn't, they looked, handled, and braked great. They were just cooler cars and ahead of their time in design. Nothing, not even the Corvette matched their style or looks on the street. They were some of the most exciting cars ever to drive or to just look at when they came out. You could never throw a musclecar into a corner like that before. If you wanted space for longer objects like ski's, the Camaro was it with the hatch and fold down rear seats. (split too if optioned that way) You can really fit alot back there if you try. They might not have been as fast as the early 5.0's but they were still quick for the time, which was one of incredibly slow and economic cars. They still sounded good, had lots of appeal and the most popularity among the general public. Everyone, regardless of demographic, knew what a Third Gen was or someone that had one. By the mid 80's the IROC-Z was THE CAR to have and by the later 80's L98 IROC's, EFI 5.0's, GN's, and TTA's were bringing back real muscle to musclecars again. They retained their appeal to many different kinds of people throughout the entire Gen, as the M*stang has kept, which is what the 4th Gen lost. The Camaro alone outsold it's competition 82-85 and 91. Combined the F-Body did it 82-87 and 91-92. It was the only time these cars ever outsold the F*rd in such a way. They lost 90 because of the half production year. IROC's were more expensive than GT's and I don't know what they sold, or any other M*stang model for model, but you got more overall performance with the Camaro and a much sportier feel/look. Today they are still popular cars with a modern look and still have interest by magazines, sites, and the aftermarket. Prices for top cars have already been appreciating. Can we say that the same will happen for the last Camaros in 10-22 years? Is/was/will there ever be enough interest?

The "Camaro formula" was dropped in the 4th Gen by having less choices, almost the same exact looks between models, overpriced upgrades, by being impossible to work on, and having models not really mean what they should or that weren't played to the fullest. Looks are also something that went against them and they were purposely not advertised. The interest just was not the same and many people bought them just for the straightline speed. Sales did an exact opposite, moving to V8 cars instead of volume V6's, which is a result of a lack of appeal and an interest in performance only. (there was also no true base V8) If the Camaro came back and was marketed in the same way that the 1st-3rd Gen cars were, it would be a success. There is no need to make a M*stang with a Chevrolet emblem on it, that is NOT the answer. A Camaro is what it is, an extra sporty, great overall-performing musclecar.

I think the 3rd Gen to 05 M*stang comparisons that we've heard is because the car has more rake, is slightly less upright, a somewhat similar seating position, increased dimensions, similar suspension design, similar looking 3-spoke steering wheel in the base car, and supposedly has better lower-mid RPM power than before. It seems to have some Camaro influence. I know both cars have influenced each other over the years in different ways, but lets keep our car what it is/what it's known for and just do it right this time and see what happens.

People really need to stop accusing what the Camaro is for it's lousy 4th Gen sales and look at the real culprit, which is the 4th Gen and how they were marketed/designed/their lack of models/options setup.

Originally Posted by Z284ever

This overused cliche' annoys me as much as "Camaro is the poor man's Corvette"

If that's true the V6 should have sold like hotcakes.

Originally Posted by Hoodshaker

Try paying attention next time. Big fast powerful engine =good. Sloped, invisible front edges from the drivers seat=bad to most drivers (NOT including myself). Last time I checked, both V6 and V8 cars have the same sloped hood and fenders....

Originally Posted by Hoodshaker

That being said, I believe is was partially the fbodies all out commoitment to performance that played a major role in the decrease of sales

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Maybe I'm slow....

How do you square that (above)....with this (below)? (which is what I was talking about):





Those sales killing, hiatus producing features that you mention (at the top), have nothing to do with an "all out commitment to performance".

Originally Posted by Hoodshaker

K. here goes. Part of the fbodies all out commitment to performance meant an extremely aerodynamic design which lead to
A. an extremely low seating position,
and B. hood and fenders so sloped that you do not know where the front end is.

So to sum it up, I'm not saying people didn't buy because the car was too powerful, handled too well, or had excellent braking. Those don't kill sales. I think we can agree that aerodynamics is a performance feature (I hope) and I think the 2 reasons above are why it hurt sales.

Originally Posted by guionM

You aren't a 3rd gen fan, are you??

3rd gens were drop dead goregus. I think anyone who was around and old enough back then, remembers when he or she 1st saw the new 3rd gen Camaro on the streets.

However, that was 21 years ago. We're in a different world today. The coupe market was as much as 2 or more times the size of the coupe market today, despite car sales being far larger now compared to the 80s. I would take the position that GM just isn't making anything good. But Ford & Chrysler did market studies that showed the same thing. The coupe market is finite. It can quickly change, but it's more of a canibal market, meaning a coupe will simply take sales from another coupe on the market, without really expanding to bring in new buyers. Coupes are also the 1st casualties of a downturn in the economy.

As far as IROCs, GNs & Turbo TAs, by today's standards, IROCs would be priced near GTOs, GNs & Turbo TAs would be around $40,000. Real muscle depended on how much you wanted to spend. That's why Mustangs did so well, despite having an old body, they were performance steals.

The 3rd gen's formula wasn't "dropped" by the 4th gen, it was ENHANCED. Better overall handling without the brain rattling nature of the 3rd gen. Better performance over a wider range of models (top 3rd gens were never available with manual transmissions). Superior quality over 3rd gens, inside & out. Superior rustproofing. Superior chassis stiffness. Superior weather sealing. Better ergonomics. The list goes on & on & on...

The trouble was that the Camaro didn't change at the time the world did. The Camaro that seemed modest sized back when most cars sold were the size of Caprices and Crown Victorias, were simply gargantuan when the world started becoming dominated by Accords and Camarys. The trouble isn't a lost "formula". It's sticking to a formula to the point of becoming an oversized throwback to a bygone age.

Pretty soon, the Camaro (which besides roughly a 1" growth in with height and length) became one of GM's largest cars sold. In the end, the only cars bigger were the "W" bodies, and not by much. Even the CTS is smaller than the 4th (and 3rd) gen F-bodies.

By every account, the new Camaro is a looker in every way the 3rd gen was when it came out. Camaro has always been about looking forward, not back. But there has to be things from the past to identify the car as a Camaro, the way Corvette is identified bt much the same items that made it a Corvette 36 years ago, despite looking modern.

But, Camaro has to adopt to today's realities. It has to be more user friendly. The C6 Corvette is more user friendly than the C5, which was light years ahead of the C4. Just the way the C5 was a jump over the C4, I'd expect the next F-body to be a jump over the 4th gen.

But I'd also expect GM to take the Camaro back to it's basics as well. It's what the public is buying today.

Originally Posted by IZ28

Yup, many people feel 3rd Gens handle better, and they basically do, on smaller tires. (they feel more willing to turn, more responsive) I have found that they do by actually comparing, but the ride is definetly harsher than a 4th Gen. It's a trade-off, but the ride doesn't bother me, these are performace cars.

I disagree with alot of your opinions Guion, (and agree with some) but I'm not gonna go on about it anymore. Some of the views I put out there went by you. For example by formula I didn't mean improvements for example, I meant setup, as in models/choices. What I'm trying to say is, keep the car reasonably low, pretty wide, and sporty. Reduce the doors some and it's size to about 185.5" at the least to maybe 187" at the absolute most, increase wheelbase, make front seating and rake similar to 3rd Gens which is sporty but not over the top like 4ths. Make it have some new looks with visable ties to basically all Gen Camaros inside and outside in some ways. It has to be something that makes people look and stare. There has to be things about it that undoubtably say Camaro. Give it more interior room, a hatch would be useful, T-Tops, and make a bunch of models and choices. Use quality components and go for beating the competition in all performance categories and sales. Make it have appeal for many demographics. That's a formula I think is a winner. Is that too much to ask? I want a Camaro, not a M*stang from Chevrolet. And that is that.

Originally Posted by AronZ28

t-tops need to die and burn in H@LL Guinon. I am convinced that the entire design/idea is flawed. GM started putting t-tops in their cars back with 1970's Corvettes. They still have not figured out how to keep them from leaking on my 1999 Z28. And there is more wind noise coming from them too compared to a hardtop. And mine have started to rattle. Just the whole concept of t-tops is flawed IMO.

Originally Posted by snorkelface

Wow, I love my T-tops. No leaking, no noise...

Sorry you got some bad ones.

Originally Posted by AronZ28

t-tops need to die and burn in H@LL Guinon. I am convinced that the entire design/idea is flawed. GM started putting t-tops in their cars back with 1970's Corvettes. They still have not figured out how to keep them from leaking on my 1999 Z28. And there is more wind noise coming from them too compared to a hardtop. And mine have started to rattle. Just the whole concept of t-tops is flawed IMO.

Originally Posted by unvc92camarors

same

maybe you or the previous owner has somehow warped the chassis?
it's been known to happen which causes the t-tops to leak, hence another benefit of sfcs
yea, the wind noise could go down but compared to my 3rd gen, it isn't nearly as bad
just turn the radio up

Originally Posted by guionM

Camaro either needs to be dirt cheap to produce, or it needs to peel off Mustang sales. Otherwise, it all pretty futile.