OK, if the Zeta car becomes, say "Chevelle", and Chevy gets a Kappa Camaro to go along with it... this begs the question:

Does this now open the door for a Kappa Firebird?

 

it would make sense wouldn't it?
if the chevelle/gto are sorta partnerish, then why can't there be a kappa firebird?
the only thing i see stopping it is that solstice
imo, i'd much rather take a firebird/trans am

 

[QUOTE=graham]So its coming back on Kappa, late '07 as MY08? Seems reasonable....QUOTE]

I thought he said the exact opposite of that.

 

What was the first production year of the chevelle anyway?

Would that date give GM the ability to unveil a new Chevelle on some type of Anniversary in the next few years?

 

Wouldn't it be around the 1964 when the chevelle debuted beside the GTO?

 

1964 was the first year for the Chevelle.

www.chevelles.com

Randy

 

Maybe the Solstice is 4 cylinder only so as to not compete with a different sporty v6/v8 model?

 

Try to follow along in the discussion. But if you can't, don't blame me.

I don't see Cadillac going to the trouble of a unique Epsilon car for Europe only, that will sell, what, a couple of thousand a year?

There hadn't been a badge-engineered WRX either, until the Saab 9-2X.

 

Camaro outsold Mustang from 1982 to 1986. Camaro outsold Mustang in 1991 because GM gave the 1991 F-bodies and extended production run after cutting the 1990 run short.

Camaro was all new in 1983, and it was sold against a Mustang that was 5 model years old at the time. This is why Camaro was successful. It most certainly wasn't because of acceleration or ride.

The IROC never outsold the comparable Mustang GT. It was the V6 and 305 V8 Camaro RS' that was responsible for the 3rd gen's volume. The Camaro RS was a swoopy, well handling (if not exactly lightning quick) car, that looked like the IROC, and was priced like the Mustang GT.

Mustangs were performance steals back then..... or the IROC was grossly overpriced. Camaro RS's price was higher than the 5.0 Mustang LX. RSs with the V8 cost alongside the more loaded and far quicker Mustang GT. If you wanted an IROC, by 1980s prices, they were EXPENSIVE.

But things today are different than the 1980s. The public isn't buying the Camaro "formula" anymore. Camaro sales imploded in 1996 (after just 3 years on the market), made a slight comeback in '97, then proceeded to drop right into the toilet at a hair raising rate. (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...19&highlight=s) To say what worked in the 1980s will work today is unrealistic.

There within is Camaro's "catch-22". Make it the way you want it, and it isn't going to sell in enough quanity to sustain it. Make it more livable & customer friendly (Mustang-like in other words), and it might turn you off, but it will sell in numbers thats likely to guarantee it's future.

This leaves 3 options:

1, Camaro can go back to it's roots and become a "PonyCar" again. With Ford selling in excess of 150,000 Mustangs last year, and on track to blow over 200,000 this year, it's a extremely hard case to dismiss.

2, Camaro can become a sort of G35-sized 4 passenger GT with the same theme as the 3rd or 4th gen Camaros, and become a sort of "niche" car, made on a low priced car structure, like the Solstice's Kappa based chassis.

or, 3, Camaro can come back as it was in size and theme as it was in the 3rd & 4th gen, with no appeal whatsoever outside a group of enthusiasts that not only couldn't sustain the car's sales through the 1990s, but couldn't even demonstrate to GM when the opportunity came that there was even enough support to even create any new vehicle with the Camaro name.

GM is a business first. You can bet the farm, the sun, the moon, the stars, and even your grandmother that #3 simply ain't goinna happen.

That leaves the other 2 options.

 

That's why I'll cherish my 4th...I'm follwing the wait and see for the 5th. Saving my money just in case.

 

why not use that camaro formula like the 3rd gen?
if you noticed, i've heard a lot of reference as to the mustang being like the 3rd gen fbodies
i fully believe that it would work if you would make it well priced (which it should be able to do with spreading the costs around, especially the engine as every car under the moon from gm is getting an lsx based engine it seems), handle well- like the iroc which shouldn't be hard, style it right, and ADVERTISE

i can almost guarantee it would work ridiculously well
if gm wants to make it more mustang like, call it something else and let the name camaro die
it's ridiculous to have to change the basis of your car to fit the public when it'll work like it used to and still would, imo

 

Good post Guoin. Personally, I think Camaro should return using option number 1 and I've been saying this all along. If the car came back as a direct evolution of the last gen I think we would see yet another premature death of the Camaro. I don't think the car has to come back as a spot-on Chevy clone of the Mustang but it is hard to argue the appeal of a more user friendly product. Perhaps a blending/blurring of options 1 and 2 would result in a real alternative to the Mustang without being a blatant copy. Lord knows there is plenty of Camaro-ness - given 35 years of history - that can be injected into a new vehicle to make it stand out from the Mustang and everything else. That said, I'm not so sure of the niche approach even if it does result in a more sporty car. Volume sales is the only saviour here.

 

Believe me, the Mustang isn't like a 3rd gen F-body.

It's about as long as the previous Mustang, it's higher beltline gives it the illusion of being lower, and it's a mere 2" wider than the last Mustang. It's still something like a foot shorter and 3" or so taller than the 3rd gen. You also sit fairly upright in the new Stang (though not nearly as much as the last Mustangs).

Spreading the cost around is good if you are using the same structure on other cars. But if you are creating a car that has limited appeal, there isn't enough spreading around possible to make up the costs.

You said it's ridiculous to change the basis of the car to fit the public, and you are partially right, a car should maintain it's heritage. However, the public is the one buying your product, and it would be business and financial suicide not to take that into account.

As for the formula working like it used to, that's unfortunately not true in this case. the coupe market is stuck around 300,000 or so cars per year. Mustang takes up over half that market alone. Yes, this means that the Mustang outsells all other small coupes combined by a substantial margin. The 2nd best selling coupe in the US is the Monte Carlo. The only reason the Eclipse is even around is because it's essentially a high production FWD sedan. The RX8 and the G35 are around because of good sales back home in Japan.

Camaro either needs to be dirt cheap to produce, or it needs to peel off Mustang sales. Otherwise, it all pretty futile.

 

I think some of the mentioned views are really flawed.

The early Third Gens sold so much because they did the usual things that M*stangs didn't, they looked, handled, and braked great. They were just cooler cars and ahead of their time in design. Nothing, not even the Corvette matched their style or looks on the street. They were some of the most exciting cars ever to drive or to just look at when they came out. You could never throw a musclecar into a corner like that before. If you wanted space for longer objects like ski's, the Camaro was it with the hatch and fold down rear seats. (split too if optioned that way) You can really fit alot back there if you try. They might not have been as fast as the early 5.0's but they were still quick for the time, which was one of incredibly slow and economic cars. They still sounded good, had lots of appeal and the most popularity among the general public. Everyone, regardless of demographic, knew what a Third Gen was or someone that had one. By the mid 80's the IROC-Z was THE CAR to have and by the later 80's L98 IROC's, EFI 5.0's, GN's, and TTA's were bringing back real muscle to musclecars again. They retained their appeal to many different kinds of people throughout the entire Gen, as the M*stang has kept, which is what the 4th Gen lost. The Camaro alone outsold it's competition 82-85 and 91. Combined the F-Body did it 82-87 and 91-92. It was the only time these cars ever outsold the F*rd in such a way. They lost 90 because of the half production year. IROC's were more expensive than GT's and I don't know what they sold, or any other M*stang model for model, but you got more overall performance with the Camaro and a much sportier feel/look. Today they are still popular cars with a modern look and still have interest by magazines, sites, and the aftermarket. Prices for top cars have already been appreciating. Can we say that the same will happen for the last Camaros in 10-22 years? Is/was/will there ever be enough interest?

The "Camaro formula" was dropped in the 4th Gen by having less choices, almost the same exact looks between models, overpriced upgrades, by being impossible to work on, and having models not really mean what they should or that weren't played to the fullest. Looks are also something that went against them and they were purposely not advertised. The interest just was not the same and many people bought them just for the straightline speed. Sales did an exact opposite, moving to V8 cars instead of volume V6's, which is a result of a lack of appeal and an interest in performance only. (there was also no true base V8) If the Camaro came back and was marketed in the same way that the 1st-3rd Gen cars were, it would be a success. There is no need to make a M*stang with a Chevrolet emblem on it, that is NOT the answer. A Camaro is what it is, an extra sporty, great overall-performing musclecar.

I think the 3rd Gen to 05 M*stang comparisons that we've heard is because the car has more rake, is slightly less upright, a somewhat similar seating position, increased dimensions, similar suspension design, similar looking 3-spoke steering wheel in the base car, and supposedly has better lower-mid RPM power than before. It seems to have some Camaro influence. I know both cars have influenced each other over the years in different ways, but lets keep our car what it is/what it's known for and just do it right this time and see what happens.

People really need to stop accusing what the Camaro is for it's lousy 4th Gen sales and look at the real culprit, which is the 4th Gen and how they were marketed/designed/their lack of models/options setup.