...it would also be nice if Camaro owners had the option of adding dealer installed performance upgrades like mentioned before. You could then drive off the lot with a Camaro approaching those lofty HP numbers.

 

Horsepower is the easy part. Putting that horsepower into an affordable, certifiable package is the hard part.

Unless Ford has some surprises up it's sleeve with the upcoming 6.2L Hurricane....the top Mustang will get a version of the GT's SC 5.4. Just to refresh everyone's memories....this 500-550 rated hp motor is dynoing at about 530 AT THE WHEELS!


The Cobra R (or whatever it's called), will get a version of this motor....with all the requisite accoutrements to support this power. In interviews...Ford has already pegged this car at $60,000.

Will this car beat the Z06? Probably not. But it will be in the same league. It doesn't have to necessarilly beat Z06, it just has to share magazine covers with it...and be seen in Cobra R vs Z06 vs Viper comparos.

Now everyone say this with me: THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT GM WILL BUILD A CAMARO THAT COSTS AS MUCH AS A Z06, AND IS DESIGNED TO OUTPERFORM A Z06!


EDIT: And all my "deepthroat" contacts indicate that the "Blue Devil" program is currently in a deeeeep sleep.

 

PacerX <---- Not worried.

Whatever the thoughts of others are now, I think Ford should be more concerned with Corvettes tearing the GT a new a$$hole than GM should be worried about a Camaro SS running with a Mustang.

GM owns the economy of scale department.

 

I guess I'll use the wait-and-see approach. I'm starting to question these HUGE HP cars anyhow. It will not be usable on the street by any stretch of the imagination. Insurance will also shoot through the roof before we know it, and people will be killing themselves IMHO. Maybe I sound old, but damn. My car puts down 400HP to the wheels with the shot I have on it and it is "interesting" on street tires...

 

You bring up a good point here about these high horsepower cars. The idea that a Camaro has to make such godawful amounts of horsepower to top a Cobra or it's not going to be worth a damn, and that's just plain silly.

If Ford finds it feasible to make a 550 horsepower borderline racing production Mustang costing $60,000 for the street, then more power to them. Who here is going to buy a $50-60,000 Camaro? Didn't think so, so what's your point???

The issue here is offering the better car when put against what the other guys are offering. If the top 5th gen has a 350 horse 5.3 V8, so what? The question should be "Does it outrun the similarly priced Mustang?" If it does, looks good & is well made, there isn't a problem.

350 horses in a 3700 pound GTO is enough to go 160mph. There's no need to go any quicker, so there's no need for more horses. On the other hand, lighter weight &/or better torque & gearing will make a car quicker. I have no doubt at all the next Camaro will be quicker than before, and will out accelerate the new Mustang GT, and maybe even have a margin to take on the next "Mach1" or "Boss" as well.

But you have it from 3 separate sources right here. You aren't going to have a Z06 beating 5th gen Camaro just because Ford has a high priced Mustang that will run fender to fender with the Z06.

Even if both Corvette & the 5th gen had the same engine, the Corvette will be quicker. It's a mere 3100 pounds. With the typical heavy weight of IRS without extensive use of expensive lightweight alumunum, I'd be surprised if the V8 5th gen weighs less than the 3400 lbs of the 4th gen.

 

In regards to the top Camaro outrunning the top Mustang why should we worry about it? The Cobra R/Cobra/whatever other name is gonna cost $60k. I never considered the other Cobra R Mustang in competition with the Camaro, just like I never saw a ZL1 427 Phase III Camaro in competition to the 03 Cobra.

As long as the Camaro can outperform (in more than just horsepower btw) a similarly priced Mustang, I'm happy . I can mod my Camaro to chase down faster stock "weekend car" Cobra R's.

 

Chevrolet is in an odd situation here. Last I've seen at the track/street/internet is the 03/04 Cobra being the Mustang running fender to fender with a Z06. I am 1/4 the car guy that most people on this board are (and about 1/10th the car guy compared to you GuionM ), but forget the history, forget the luxury and 'status' of Corvette. When I look at 60k and 32k and I see that I get pretty much the same straight line performance I have to wonder. If I put down 60k-65k for a Z06 and I get passed by some guy with a 32k Cobra I am going to be pissed. Yeah, my car may handle better, may have this or that better but is that worth another 30k for a Corvette? Being an outsider of the industry (and someone whom normally lurks here) I see Chevrolet's Z06 Corvette for 60k and this other car that can keep up with it for 32k . If the Cobra's were priced at 60k *or* the Z06 spanked the Cobra in every contest then I wouldn't think there would be an issue here.

I would love to ask any exec/marketing person/engineer/etc... who works for Chevrolet this simple question:

In this economy with many high paying jobs being outsourced, high gas prices etc... what does the Vette have that's worth double the price of a base Cobra?
Name? Handling? Ride? Comfort? Quality?

 

First of all, the 03/04 Cobra does not run fender to fender with an 02+ Z06 (unless that Cobra is modified). I guess the same "odd" situation would apply to Ferrari and other exotics since the Z06 is half of their prices, yet is runs comparable times at the track (twisties and straights).

 

Just wanted to point out that the base price of the mustang cobra is 35,485 and the base price of the ZO6 is 52,985(commemorative edition is 57,320).

 

Actually only 9% of the jobs being refered to as being "outsourced" are leaving American soil...saw that stat just the other day.

Gas prices are historicaly not near what they were in recent history.

And finally, YES the C5/6 is worth at least 50% (100% would put them at $70k) more than a hot rod Mustang.

Have you ever been under / inside a C5/6? They are built at a far higher standard and include MUCH more technology than any Mustang will ever have.

Besides, you can get a new C5 right now for not much more (if any) than a Cobra....a no brainer in my book.

 

There's a wild card here in all this, Pewter. People by Corvettes because they are Corvettes!

Corvette is an inspirational car, and it's fans are a devoted bunch. Also, Corvette is in a different class as far as sales go. Mustang is putting the performance into the Cobra to match Corvette for bragging rights: "We have a 4 passenger Mustang that can keep up with the best 2 passenger Corvette".

I don't see any Corvette buyers deciding to buy a Cobra simply because it can keep up with a Z06. Nor do I see a Cobra buyer being stolen by a slightly quicker Z06.

Up at that price altitude, you are no longer a bargain hunter. You're buying what you want.

 

Ok, I have seen 32k somewhere and it stuck, if it's 36k then that's fine (haven't actually shopped for one), I didn't see any Z06 at my over priced Hendrik Chevrolet dealer under 59k (and that may very well be them). Even 52k for a base is still a lot more than 36k.


I have seen a couple of different Cobras beat out Z06 Vettes at the track with my own cryin eyes. Not by much mind you. As far as mods go, I only know one of the owners of the 03 Cobras I have seen beat 03 Vettes (have not seen match up with an 04 Vette) and his car's only mod is tired. the others may have bigger mods, I dunno. The Z06 drivers may be clueless as well, I dunno that either but they did launch pretty hard.

Agree%100, but they should honor factory warranty on everything after power adders are installed.



For the record, I didn't mean to hijack this thread into a Vette thread, I personally think Chevrolet should build a 35k Camaro that could compete with a Cobra and leave the Vette in a higher class of it's own to compete with a Type R.

 

I have seen strange things myself at the track (where anything can happen). Usually, traction and driver skill plays a very important role. I guess I meant to compare typical trap speed. I have seen quite a few Z06's run 115-117mph stock, while a stock Cobra typically hangs around 110-112mph.

 

One thing to note first:

Serious kudos to Chevrolet, PARTICULARLY MARKETING, for actually LOWERING the base price of the C6 relative to the C5.

Fantastic job.



Second, my fearless prediction is that C6 Z06's have nothing to fear from Mustangs, no matter what they cost. You might get a dolled up Mustang to run with a Z06 at a dragstrip, but that car will get a$$-packed by one on a road course.

Sorry, but the platform just isn't going to cut it. Too big, too heavy, too flaccid.

Now, if Ford wants to make a 500hp Mustang, fine. There is certainly room for a 450hp SS in the mix to play with it - without infringing on the Z06 market - that costs considerably less. On the big end, the Corvette will still lay down the law.

Again, the issue isn't what the Corvette has to be worried about. Corvettes make money and they have the huge economy of scale of GM behind them.

The issue is what the Ford GT has to be worried about for TWICE the price of a top-shelf Corvette...

Here's a final point:

Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.

 

GM no doubt won't be beat on a powertrain vs cost to manufacture standpoint. It takes a handmade Cobra engine to equal the LS6 (I know Cobra puts out 30 more actual horses, but go with me here). So not only is Cobra's DOHC blown engine inherently more expensive, it costs more to make on the assembly line due to it's "special" assembly process, cool as it may be.

However, a company like Ford can make up a substantial portion of that in marketing.