Oh Oh!
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
TWO POINTS...
First - Please understand there is a difference between a future $60k Cobra-R and the $32K SVT Cobra... We seem to be throwing the two into a common pile here lately in this thread.
Second - The common SVT Cobra will - from this day forward - be placed in competition with the base Corvette on performance. New "Cobra" should be at or below $40k MSRP. The goal is to offer 2 more seats and a reduced price, but offer roughly equal straightline and at least competitive cornering (though granted a MacPherson strutted car will never hold equal to a lighter, longer car with true upper/lower control arms).
Comparing the Top Mustang (be it Cobra-R or GT500) to a Z06 is wrong - NOT what either manufacturer is after.
You wanna know the truth...
GM and Ford BOTH better keep sharp eyes on DCM - THAT'S where the sleepers are popping up and they are kicking major @$$ over there.
My $.05 w/$.03 change.
First - Please understand there is a difference between a future $60k Cobra-R and the $32K SVT Cobra... We seem to be throwing the two into a common pile here lately in this thread.
Second - The common SVT Cobra will - from this day forward - be placed in competition with the base Corvette on performance. New "Cobra" should be at or below $40k MSRP. The goal is to offer 2 more seats and a reduced price, but offer roughly equal straightline and at least competitive cornering (though granted a MacPherson strutted car will never hold equal to a lighter, longer car with true upper/lower control arms).
Comparing the Top Mustang (be it Cobra-R or GT500) to a Z06 is wrong - NOT what either manufacturer is after.
Originally posted by PacerX
One thing to note first:
Serious kudos to Chevrolet, PARTICULARLY MARKETING, for actually LOWERING the base price of the C6 relative to the C5.
Fantastic job.
I agree 100%. I also think Ford gets an equal pat on the back for totally redesigning the Mustang and not throwing the price out the window too. Maybe this says something for the US automakers waking up and smelling the coffee?
Second, my fearless prediction is that C6 Z06's have nothing to fear from Mustangs, no matter what they cost. You might get a dolled up Mustang to run with a Z06 at a dragstrip, but that car will get a$$-packed by one on a road course.
Sorry, but the platform just isn't going to cut it. Too big, too heavy, too flaccid.
I agree 100% - again. At least when it comes to Mustangs...
Now don't forget the Z06 is Chevy's halo. Ford is now feilding the GT as their halo which, as I recall, not only a$$packed the Z06 embarassingly, but also the Ferrari, Lambo, and even the vaunted Porsche - most of the latter costing 2-3 times what (the pricey) GT costs. And it did it with the blown 5.4 we were talking about earlier, not some 600hp future wet dream. So let's doll out the a$$packings with some discretion, OK?
Now, if Ford wants to make a 500hp Mustang, fine. There is certainly room for a 450hp SS in the mix to play with it - without infringing on the Z06 market - that costs considerably less. On the big end, the Corvette will still lay down the law.
If that's what happens, OK by me. Personally, I'd rather see the Z/28 and the GT350 both weigh in at about 3300lbs, and sporting 400hp under the hood - no more.
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
In all honesty, let Cobra go to the next level, and set Camaro RS, SS, and Z/28 sights on Mustang GT, Mach 1, and Boss - say it with me...let the Cobra go...
Again, the issue isn't what the Corvette has to be worried about. Corvettes make money and they have the huge economy of scale of GM behind them.
The issue isn't what the Mustang has to be worried about. Mustangs make money and they have the huge economy of scale of Ford behind them.
So what's our point?
The issue is what the Ford GT has to be worried about for TWICE the price of a top-shelf Corvette...
Right now and through the 2007 MY, I'd say ... hmmmm... NOTHING MUCH except making production and deliveries as fast as orders piled in!
Here's a final point:
Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.
So what you're saying is that if Ford was to build a 5.4 for it's truck line, then it could share some of the parts with a blown 5.4 identical to the one used in the GT? OK, great, I'll get right on it! Oh wait, they already do, don't they? In fact, they have been offering blown 5.4's for some time now in L's and Harley-Davidson models. Oh well, HARDLY EVER see one of those on the road eh, much less an F150 or Expedition with an N/A Triton 5.4 - you know, the BEST-SELLING TRUCK IN THE WORLD at nearly 1-million/year with a few hundred thousand more SuperDutys, Vans, Navigators and Expeditions thrown in for good measure.
Your point is WELL made, but you yourself must admit that economy of scale is just that... economy of SCALE. Can't see the Vette benefitting from anything the Mustang or Cobra doesn't, except the commitment to be a technological test bed for GM, which does have it's own benefits.
One thing to note first:
Serious kudos to Chevrolet, PARTICULARLY MARKETING, for actually LOWERING the base price of the C6 relative to the C5.
Fantastic job.
I agree 100%. I also think Ford gets an equal pat on the back for totally redesigning the Mustang and not throwing the price out the window too. Maybe this says something for the US automakers waking up and smelling the coffee?
Second, my fearless prediction is that C6 Z06's have nothing to fear from Mustangs, no matter what they cost. You might get a dolled up Mustang to run with a Z06 at a dragstrip, but that car will get a$$-packed by one on a road course.
Sorry, but the platform just isn't going to cut it. Too big, too heavy, too flaccid.
I agree 100% - again. At least when it comes to Mustangs...
Now don't forget the Z06 is Chevy's halo. Ford is now feilding the GT as their halo which, as I recall, not only a$$packed the Z06 embarassingly, but also the Ferrari, Lambo, and even the vaunted Porsche - most of the latter costing 2-3 times what (the pricey) GT costs. And it did it with the blown 5.4 we were talking about earlier, not some 600hp future wet dream. So let's doll out the a$$packings with some discretion, OK?
Now, if Ford wants to make a 500hp Mustang, fine. There is certainly room for a 450hp SS in the mix to play with it - without infringing on the Z06 market - that costs considerably less. On the big end, the Corvette will still lay down the law.
If that's what happens, OK by me. Personally, I'd rather see the Z/28 and the GT350 both weigh in at about 3300lbs, and sporting 400hp under the hood - no more.
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
In all honesty, let Cobra go to the next level, and set Camaro RS, SS, and Z/28 sights on Mustang GT, Mach 1, and Boss - say it with me...let the Cobra go...
Again, the issue isn't what the Corvette has to be worried about. Corvettes make money and they have the huge economy of scale of GM behind them.
The issue isn't what the Mustang has to be worried about. Mustangs make money and they have the huge economy of scale of Ford behind them.
So what's our point?
The issue is what the Ford GT has to be worried about for TWICE the price of a top-shelf Corvette...
Right now and through the 2007 MY, I'd say ... hmmmm... NOTHING MUCH except making production and deliveries as fast as orders piled in!
Here's a final point:
Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.
So what you're saying is that if Ford was to build a 5.4 for it's truck line, then it could share some of the parts with a blown 5.4 identical to the one used in the GT? OK, great, I'll get right on it! Oh wait, they already do, don't they? In fact, they have been offering blown 5.4's for some time now in L's and Harley-Davidson models. Oh well, HARDLY EVER see one of those on the road eh, much less an F150 or Expedition with an N/A Triton 5.4 - you know, the BEST-SELLING TRUCK IN THE WORLD at nearly 1-million/year with a few hundred thousand more SuperDutys, Vans, Navigators and Expeditions thrown in for good measure.
Your point is WELL made, but you yourself must admit that economy of scale is just that... economy of SCALE. Can't see the Vette benefitting from anything the Mustang or Cobra doesn't, except the commitment to be a technological test bed for GM, which does have it's own benefits.
GM and Ford BOTH better keep sharp eyes on DCM - THAT'S where the sleepers are popping up and they are kicking major @$$ over there.
My $.05 w/$.03 change.
Last edited by ProudPony; Jul 12, 2004 at 08:43 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 293
From: Hou,TX
The Z06 is not going to match the GT. Not even close. It's slated to make 475-500hp flywheel. The GT dynos ~530 at the REAR WHEELS.
The $45K 2007 SVT Mustang Cobra will trounce the LS2 Vette and probably come close to the 7L Z06.
There's no room for a 450hp Camaro because who the hell is going to explain why a 450hp Camaro costs less than the 400hp Vette sitting next to it? Shoot, the best you can hope for is Chevy simply says the Camaro Z/28 makes 375 when it really makes whatever the base Vette does. Just like before.
I see a REAL 330-350hp SS 5.3 that will compete with the stang GT and the 6.0 400hp Z/28 that will go up against the SE stangs with NA 5.4 motors. If we simply remove the SVT Cobra from the picture, the Camaro should do fine against the stangs.
The $45K 2007 SVT Mustang Cobra will trounce the LS2 Vette and probably come close to the 7L Z06.
There's no room for a 450hp Camaro because who the hell is going to explain why a 450hp Camaro costs less than the 400hp Vette sitting next to it? Shoot, the best you can hope for is Chevy simply says the Camaro Z/28 makes 375 when it really makes whatever the base Vette does. Just like before.
I see a REAL 330-350hp SS 5.3 that will compete with the stang GT and the 6.0 400hp Z/28 that will go up against the SE stangs with NA 5.4 motors. If we simply remove the SVT Cobra from the picture, the Camaro should do fine against the stangs.
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
We've been over this. The Z06 is going to be 300-400 lbs lighter than the GT..that's as good as having 30-40 more HP. The Z06 may not match the GT but its going to be a helluva lot closer than most Ford apologists are willing to admit.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 380
From: Gretna (Omaha), NE
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,381
Originally posted by ADV1
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Because the costs extra money and time. And probably too much money to make it worth it
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
The GT is designed to go after the 360 Modena and Lambo Gallardo as its main two characters. you dont go after your competitor costing more than twice as much. and have a total different layout
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Because the costs extra money and time. And probably too much money to make it worth it
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
The GT is designed to go after the 360 Modena and Lambo Gallardo as its main two characters. you dont go after your competitor costing more than twice as much. and have a total different layout
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Originally posted by detltu
This thread has gone in an entirely different direction.
This thread has gone in an entirely different direction.
1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or
2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.
I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by ADV1
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
The idea with the original Mustang Cobras were to take a Mustang & make it run with Corvettes. That's exactly where Ford has/is taking the current and the future version.
2. The Ford GT was NEVER, EVER, EVER, NEVEREVER intended to be a direct competitor to the Corvette. The purpose of the Ford GT is to create an American exotic car that out-performs exotics at a far lower price, and to be a showcase car for the Ford Motor company. The Corvette wasn't even on the table. Ferraris were.
The Viper was initially created as a "Rally-around-Chrysler" car. Chrysler did the Viper on the whim of Bob Lutz, Bob Eaton, and a few other Chrysler executives who thought it would be a neat idea to showcase their new Chrysler V10 in a modern day Cobra. Viper was intended to be in production for just a few years, but did far better than Chrysler intended. The thing actually made money!
The newer version has some of the rough edges of the original ironed out, and today, by accident or association, it's also called an exotic. But unlike exotics like the Ford GT, or the assorted Ferrari or Lamborgini (whose car will only rarely see the driveway, let alone the street), Viper owners actually drive & race their cars regularly.
So, it can be said that price aside, Viper is closer to the Corvette Z06 than it is to the Ford GT, while the GT is in the same class as foreign exotics, which Corvette isn't.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Yup....from my observation, these threads turn south anytime one of two things happens:
1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or
2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.
I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.
Yup....from my observation, these threads turn south anytime one of two things happens:
1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or
2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.
I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.
In regards to the GT, like Chis said, the GT will outpower the Z06, but its gonna be carrying a ghetto booty around with it. I was very dissappointed with the weight figures when the GT came out. IMO, its a tad too much. And that very reason will be the problem when Z06's that cost less than half their price run with them, because the Z06 is gonna be lighter. Quite a bit lighter if the rumors turn out to be half true.
Back to the original topic and hoping that the FordvsGM thing dies off with both parties accepting the fact that their favorite companies are going to be producing some great products in the future, whos gonna be buying that sept. issue of PHR?
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.
Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.
Here's why I take exception to the statement above...
This is probably the BEST forum on the web for ALL NEW CARS and even some history about old ones. I could care less if it was called "Bob's Car Spot" or anything else. I commend the admin of this site for changing the name a while back to include "future vehicles", and I think they are wise to entertain the notion of all makes and models, new and old in this forum.
Now personally, I PREFER this forum over Stangnet and others for the honest and typically unbiased reports and opinions we often read in here. I get sick and tired of hearing "Ford will be faster" or "Mustangs rule!" on those boards. Most of the posters on those boards are severely jaded towards thier marque, just like a few are in this forum - and I think it reaks, so I typically don't hang out in those places.
Last comment - If the GM loyalists (I prefer that to apologists myself) want to rant and rave and talk BS about Ford or any other make - simply go to another forum (like the lounge) and you will never hear a word from me! I don't/won't go there - there is nothing in there for me I can't get in spades in Stangnet's lounge (don't go there much either).
But can we not agree that this forum is indeed one of the best on the web - regardless of it's origin as a GM-based site - and let it go at that? All I want to see is what's coming out with some good discussion about it. I'll defend Ford's position if I feel it is being raked unfairly, but I'm not a troll or a gloat. I don't often get involved in pi$$ing contests, but I will challenge a claim from time to time - stuff like that keeps us honest and makes this site great IMO.
OK - nuff said.
Now, explain to me how you get "off-topic" when the thread is titled "Oh-Oh!"?!?!
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
I agree this is the best forum of its kind on the web, but you must take the context in to account..that it is on a site name CAMAROZ28.com.
I use the term apologists because there seems to be a come back for every point against ford...I would expect no less from GM enthusiasts, but I swear it is like clockwork...see somebody innocently make a jab about ford and here comes the Ford team to refute every comment and turn the thread into how great the GT and new Mustang are.
I'm glad you guys enjoy the conversations here, and Ford discussions do have their place here, in threads that pertain to such. I see far too many threads get turned into ford vs. chevy in here.
To me its like Jewish people saying the Passion was Anti-Semetic. They were overly sensitive to the issue. To someone not going in expected to see anti-semetism...it didn't exist. I'd just like to see one of you guys let a stupid anti-ford comment go once in a while instead of having to take up for the blue oval EVERY SINGLE STINKING TIME and take threads WAYYYYY off topic as a result.
Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.
I use the term apologists because there seems to be a come back for every point against ford...I would expect no less from GM enthusiasts, but I swear it is like clockwork...see somebody innocently make a jab about ford and here comes the Ford team to refute every comment and turn the thread into how great the GT and new Mustang are.
I'm glad you guys enjoy the conversations here, and Ford discussions do have their place here, in threads that pertain to such. I see far too many threads get turned into ford vs. chevy in here.
To me its like Jewish people saying the Passion was Anti-Semetic. They were overly sensitive to the issue. To someone not going in expected to see anti-semetism...it didn't exist. I'd just like to see one of you guys let a stupid anti-ford comment go once in a while instead of having to take up for the blue oval EVERY SINGLE STINKING TIME and take threads WAYYYYY off topic as a result.
Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.
Last edited by Chris 96 WS6; Jul 12, 2004 at 09:29 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.
Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.
One of the things that makes this forum so interesting, is that we have enough knowledgeable posters to keep everyone honest....and stimulate an open debate.
It's really one long yawn, when you go to a site and find nothing but cheerleaders. I just can't stand that.
Didn't mean to sidetrack this thread......back to the"Oh Oh!" topic.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
I agree this is the best forum of its kind on the web, but you must take the context in to account..that it is on a site name CAMAROZ28.com.
I agree this is the best forum of its kind on the web, but you must take the context in to account..that it is on a site name CAMAROZ28.com.
Again, I think this forum has grown into something that was unintented at the beginning. When the name Camaroz28.com was founded, I doubt that the guys knew they would possess one of the most CREDIBLE future vehicle sites on the web - for ALL BRANDS NO LESS. So how could they have named it anything appropriate at that time?
I see your point, but you have to see mine too - even if you don't agree in full. This forum is SPECIAL... it has grown BEYOND the name of the website on which it resides. In this forum, it's about bringing something substantial to the discussion, not jibberish and wet dreams. We do FACTS here. We occasionally do speculation based on facts. We post links or images. We cite data and figures. In short, we are credible. Like Z284ever said (well to BTW),"One of the things that makes this forum so interesting, is that we have enough knowledgeable posters to keep everyone honest....and stimulate an open debate.
I agree that there are Ford loyalists that come here and post in an annoying manner. But you know what, I tolerate them just like I tolerate the GM loyalists that wander in here and do the same thing - and yes, they are annoying too. I have to cipher through their dream material to find the facts that are posted by credible sources. If you want banter and unsubstantiated "feel-good" comments - go to the lounge. If you want beefy material and honest opinion with debate - it's RIGHT IN HERE.
BTW, I have seen more good debates in this forum than anywhere, whether it was cars v trucks, GM v Ford, FWD v RWD, N/A v blown, z/28 v SS, or even Bush v Kerry. That's another reason why I keep coming back.
All I can say is try to ignore the losers and trolls, and hopefully they will go away. As for the Ford v Chevy thing in every thread you say is eating your craw... maybe you can look at it as "sibling rivalry?
I never knew two brothers that didn't compete to be the best at EVERYTHING they did. Maybe it just goes to show how closely tied together the two are?
Know what I hate most in here... the guys who never bring ANYTHING to the party, but come in to scrutinize and belittle (with childish disposition) the good stuff others DO BRING. Guys (from all sides) who have extremely rose-colored glasses AND no respect for what the other companies are doing. Guys that you can NEVER agree with on ANYTHING - they won't let you, because they are trolls that have nothing better to do than argue for the sake of arguing. I ignore them - you will never see me post a reply to their nonsense, even though many of you other regulars DO make the effort to point these guys straight, futile as it may be (
to you, you have more time and patience than I). We know who they are.As long as the lines are well-written and not lounge-fodder or back-pocket BS, I don't mind a good zinger against a Ford... heck, I probably know more of them than you GM guys do!
But if they get dished out, you better be able to take them back too - 'nuf said.
Dead thread alert! Next...