Interesting read on American cars and trucks......
12-23-2006, 12:34 PM
#61
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Isn’t it curious that the nameplate the salesman (who was quoted) is selling is Chrysler/Jeep!
Given the much used “where the profit goes” mantra so many are fond of and given that ALL of Chrysler’s profits go to Germany, I fail to see how anyone can continue to call Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep “American” and keep a straight face while doing so.
In other words, the “where the profits go” aficionados need to tell Anvari (the salesman) that if he really thinks Americans should be buying “American” cars then he needs to start selling for another dealership.
Given the much used “where the profit goes” mantra so many are fond of and given that ALL of Chrysler’s profits go to Germany, I fail to see how anyone can continue to call Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep “American” and keep a straight face while doing so.
In other words, the “where the profits go” aficionados need to tell Anvari (the salesman) that if he really thinks Americans should be buying “American” cars then he needs to start selling for another dealership.
I love how you throw things out there about people just to make a point that has already been proven not by one or two but multiple people and when you get cornered you change the subject. Just like SSBaby points out..So this is the 3rd post in recent months where you try and sling your thoughts out there thinking your right and many of us are wrong? even someone from outside the U.S.? So tell me where does the profits for Nissan go???
Yet right here you say that the profits go to Germany yet you go back and state in many other forms it has no relavance to to subject of where the profit goes cus they are a global company. So what is it? You make it an argument point? your defending what you said was hogwash a last time....
If a corperation founded in a country goes global they cease to be a company from that origin? If its walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck..IT IS A DUCK.. I guess Donald is not American anymore since hes globalized his portfolio.
If GM is owned by americans, run at the top by americans and resides in the U.S. how can it not be? If DCX is a German company then GM is an American company. Is the NFL, MLB, NASCAR, three great American sports. Are they American?? Is Bud and Sam Adams american companies? The rehashing of things to support your argument after being repeted time and again as you put it "Red hering" Your words. That is what your doing. You talk about CEO's being for one thing, money. With no consideration to the country they live in. Now if anyone remebers before Jason stepped in and locked the thread. I had the pleasure of speaking to a CEO my company does work for, and since we keep secret what we do around here I can eleborate just a little. He is Founder and CEO of one of the most prominent medical companies in the world, based right here in MA. I brought this to him for his thought on how people perceive him. Well I had the notes but since it was locked I put them i nthe recycle bin, I do not think I have them still so I cannot quote. But the thing is I do remeber what he said when I asked him about his thoughts on not caring about the U.S. and only money. He said ,
Son I have fought in 2 wars for this country, lost close friends in doing so. Raised a family here, built this company from nothing but soil on the ground and my two hands in the country. If someone had told me this to my face I would of knocked his teeth in.I live breath and will die for this country. For someone to say otherwise they can come take my *** down at both my office and in my yard. But dont think I will not put up a fight. Everything I do is for my family and liberty of this country. What he is saying is bordering on communism to go back to that way of thinking.
So yes I am a Where does the profit go. Yet..argument cannot be sustained. I never said DCX when mentioning Ford and GM now did I? But again if they are mulitnational your argument of DCX being German has no water..
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; 12-23-2006 at 12:49 PM.
12-23-2006, 12:57 PM
#62
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I'm sure many Americans think Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge are still "American" but a hell of a lot of "Americans" couldn't tell you what decade this is if they couldn't look it up on the internet and heaven help you if you ask a really difficult question like "how many continents are there in the world". So; I’m sure many customers think they are “buying American” but thinking so doesn’t make it so.
As to your Dakota/Titan comparison you may well be right if you look at total sales of each (I don’t know how Dakota’s total sales for any recent years) but the Titan is pretty low production so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dakota sells more than the Titan. That said, I’m not sure why you comparing a compact truck to a full-sized truck? At any rate, the comparison falls apart when you compare on a per unit basis for many of the same reasons that number of facilities/employees in the U.S. isn’t a valid argument for deciding what is or isn’t “American”.
Because of a similar argument n a thread of a couple of months ago, I went to a Nissan dealer’s lot and a Dodge dealer’s lot and looked at the NA parts content of a Titan and a Dodge (1/2 ton); I may be wrong about the exact figures but I do remember that there was approximately a 14 point spread (I believe the Titan was at 61% and the Dodge at 75%). Yes, the Dodge had more NA parts but 14% is not exactly a huge spread and if that’s the sole basis for calling the Dodge truck “American” then I would suggest it’s a shaky basis (and one that could easily be erased as time goes on).
As to R&D and design and production there simply isn’t a measurable difference between a Dodge truck and a Nissan truck; the only one that would favor Dodge is the number of retirees; frankly, I’m not sure the number of retirees any one company has is really germane to a discussion about where Chrysler group is today.
As to your Dakota/Titan comparison you may well be right if you look at total sales of each (I don’t know how Dakota’s total sales for any recent years) but the Titan is pretty low production so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dakota sells more than the Titan. That said, I’m not sure why you comparing a compact truck to a full-sized truck? At any rate, the comparison falls apart when you compare on a per unit basis for many of the same reasons that number of facilities/employees in the U.S. isn’t a valid argument for deciding what is or isn’t “American”.
Because of a similar argument n a thread of a couple of months ago, I went to a Nissan dealer’s lot and a Dodge dealer’s lot and looked at the NA parts content of a Titan and a Dodge (1/2 ton); I may be wrong about the exact figures but I do remember that there was approximately a 14 point spread (I believe the Titan was at 61% and the Dodge at 75%). Yes, the Dodge had more NA parts but 14% is not exactly a huge spread and if that’s the sole basis for calling the Dodge truck “American” then I would suggest it’s a shaky basis (and one that could easily be erased as time goes on).
As to R&D and design and production there simply isn’t a measurable difference between a Dodge truck and a Nissan truck; the only one that would favor Dodge is the number of retirees; frankly, I’m not sure the number of retirees any one company has is really germane to a discussion about where Chrysler group is today.
2) Prove to me the R&D difference, and factor in the domestic vendors designing the parts for the Dodge versus the Nissan.
I admit to typically ignoring these discussions, as they never end up being any more than a pissing contest. The fact remains that you're supporting more Americans by buying a Chrysler than a Nissan, yet you'll tell me several reasons why I'm wrong. The size of the company's workforces in American alone dictate you're incorrect. The amount of vendors used by each company also proves you incorrect.
Yet, all of us must be wrong. I'm gonna love it when Americans keep buying Accords and Camrys, and watch yet more jobs go overseas...and they'll wonder why...
The amount of jobs being added by companies such as Nissan and Kia nowhere near offset the losses from the Big 2.5...at all.
12-23-2006, 05:39 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by Derek M
Sorry it's a real example. It's very real. It's ingrained into our history, it's what makes America what it is today. 60 years ago isn't that all long ago. Not even one life time. How quickly we are to forget and brush this off as just some little event. Hardly. This effort by these companies and their employees was crucial in providing our war machine, men and women of our armed forces, the gear and equipment needed to win the war. If this effort did not happen the likelihood of us speaking another language as our national spoken language is and was very real. The United States industrial machine couldn’t be matched.
Find a single post by me anywhere where I’ve ever derided the contribution U.S. industry in fighting WWII…find one post where I ever said that the contribution during wartime was not important; even paramount to the victory of the Allies. Find one post by me what I’ve glossed-over or said that the contribution to the U.S. economy and the building of the middle class by the U.S. auto industry was not important.
The problem is, absolutely none of that has ANYTHING to do with the kind of company GM and Ford are today.
When revenues and profits aren't reflected in yen or some other none USD currency.
When the stock is listed on the NYSE as domestic.
When the company employs more Americans than non-Americans.
When the bulk of company structure is within the shores of the US.
When the company headquarters resides within the shores of the US.
When the bulk of the company partnerships and relationships heavily reside within the shores of the US.
When the company contributes more to the GNP than American equivalents.
When the company produces substantially more cars in the US than they import.
When the stock is listed on the NYSE as domestic.
When the company employs more Americans than non-Americans.
When the bulk of company structure is within the shores of the US.
When the company headquarters resides within the shores of the US.
When the bulk of the company partnerships and relationships heavily reside within the shores of the US.
When the company contributes more to the GNP than American equivalents.
When the company produces substantially more cars in the US than they import.
Do you even know where DCX is listed? Here is a hint; it’s listed on the NYSE (as are many other foreign companies) as a global stock meaning it is traded on a number of international exchanges.
Every international nameplate that manufacturers here does have a headquarters in the U.S. just as GM and Ford have headquarters in many other countries.
Hate to tell you but most of the international nameplates who manufacture here buy their parts from the exact same suppliers that GM and Ford does…tell me where you get this notion that an axle bought from Dana Corporation to go in a Honda has any less impact on the U.S. economy than an axle bought from Dana by GM to go in a Chevrolet?
So, size is the only measure? What are you going to do when Toyota has more manufacturing facilities in the U.S. than GM? If you don’t think that could happen, think again.
As a matter of fact, most of the international nameplates who manufacture here do manufacture more vehicles in the U.S. than they import, in Nissan’s case, 80% of the cars it sells here are manufactured here.
When the company meets the above criteria, then the company can be considered good for America and Americans. Till then it's a token effort at best and an attempt to shroud and cloud the less informed that these companies have magically become American and are somehow great for our future and well being.
12-23-2006, 05:58 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by Jason E
2) Prove to me the R&D difference, and factor in the domestic vendors designing the parts for the Dodge versus the Nissan.
I admit to typically ignoring these discussions, as they never end up being any more than a pissing contest. The fact remains that you're supporting more Americans by buying a Chrysler than a Nissan, yet you'll tell me several reasons why I'm wrong. The size of the company's workforces in American alone dictate you're incorrect. The amount of vendors used by each company also proves you incorrect.
Yet, all of us must be wrong. I'm gonna love it when Americans keep buying Accords and Camrys, and watch yet more jobs go overseas...and they'll wonder why...
The amount of jobs being added by companies such as Nissan and Kia nowhere near offset the losses from the Big 2.5...at all.
Yet, all of us must be wrong. I'm gonna love it when Americans keep buying Accords and Camrys, and watch yet more jobs go overseas...and they'll wonder why...
The amount of jobs being added by companies such as Nissan and Kia nowhere near offset the losses from the Big 2.5...at all.
Whether your statement is true in total would depend on total U.S. manufactured vehicles sold by each company – I don’t know how many U.S. built units Chrysler sold in the past 12 months but I would not be at all surprised if Toyota and Honda both have sold more U.S. built Toyotas and Hondas than U.S. built Chryslers or if they haven’t done so yet, they probably will soon.
As to the amount of jobs being replaced; you can chalk a lot of that up to efficiency (and the inefficiency of GM/Ford/Chrysler) - the UAW workforces of GM/Ford/Chrysler have been bloated for years.
If Toyota can get the same line speed/unit production with 1,000 workers that took GM 1,800 workers that isn’t Toyota’s fault nor should the American public be forced to subsidize the wages of workers that GM/Ford/Chrysler haven’t needed for years.
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not happy to see anyone out of work but a lot of the layoffs and buyouts should have happened years ago.
12-23-2006, 06:13 PM
#65
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Caps,
If you had bothered to comprehend what I’ve said in this thread you would know that …
1. Yes, I do say that the “where the profits go” argument is bogus…devoid of substance…a red hearing.
2. I’ve also said that anybody who is going to make that ridiculous argument should at least be consistent and acknowledge that DCX cannot be considered “American” because all the profits go to Germany.
3. I’ve not said anything about you in this thread nor have I said or even implied that you’ve said anything about DCX.
And as for your CEO argument, I’ve said many, many times (as I’m sure you’ve conveniently forgotten that “people” (even CEOs) can be patriotic and be motivated by patriotic feelings; Companies are not. There is also a very BIG difference between a multi-national company with no ties to its original founders compared to a company still run by the person that founded it (Wal-Mart…need I say more).
If you had bothered to comprehend what I’ve said in this thread you would know that …
1. Yes, I do say that the “where the profits go” argument is bogus…devoid of substance…a red hearing.
2. I’ve also said that anybody who is going to make that ridiculous argument should at least be consistent and acknowledge that DCX cannot be considered “American” because all the profits go to Germany.
3. I’ve not said anything about you in this thread nor have I said or even implied that you’ve said anything about DCX.
And as for your CEO argument, I’ve said many, many times (as I’m sure you’ve conveniently forgotten that “people” (even CEOs) can be patriotic and be motivated by patriotic feelings; Companies are not. There is also a very BIG difference between a multi-national company with no ties to its original founders compared to a company still run by the person that founded it (Wal-Mart…need I say more).
12-23-2006, 06:31 PM
#66
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CEO I have talked to, his company is worldwide.
the whole where does the profit go. Well since I was the one that originated it. Well I guess that goes back to me. You say DCX is a germany company and the money goes to Germany. Yet you said the exact opposite to it in other threads..
So a CEO of a global corperation based here in the U.S says alot of things in your post are not correct and way off base.
Many people here on this site from blue collar workers to people that work in some form for GM, Ford or DCX say your way off base.
Someone freom Australia comes in here and tells you your off base.
Tell me how can we all be wrong yet your the only one that is right in your thinking???? Not possible...Not possible at all. You twist things aroung to suit your argument. Pick apart peoples post to make a point about something thats not relevant to what was asked half the time,. Use long drawn out pragraphs to state a case that might be way off of what is asked. Nice try but your rehashing, redirecting and reusing everything that has been said to make a statement. So far this is the third thread about the same tired stuff you promote, yet another person again takes a look at it and sees through it. SSBaby, and before him Proud Pony and so on. Every time we bring up a valid point you say its junk. or red hering or whatever and the way I see it is your here for one reason, not because you had F bodies but to speak out in your ideas of what you think is right and wrong and whats fair. It is people like you that think that its okay to buy Nissans and Toyotas and its okay. it still helps the economy..it doesnt..
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; 12-23-2006 at 06:54 PM.
12-23-2006, 06:49 PM
#67
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Titan was 100% designed in the U.S. by Americans for the American market
12-23-2006, 06:49 PM
#68
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Just the sort of intelligent response I've come to expect from you, Caps. 
12-23-2006, 06:52 PM
#69
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ohh its gets better..I wasnt finished..how many diffrent people have seen through your post and came to the same conclusion??
Just bringing it down to your level now. The way I see it is for all the wording you put in there. your still throwing stuff at people that has been proven incorrect, out of context or flat out wrong.
Just bringing it down to your level now. The way I see it is for all the wording you put in there. your still throwing stuff at people that has been proven incorrect, out of context or flat out wrong.
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; 12-23-2006 at 07:11 PM.
12-23-2006, 06:57 PM
#70
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That is a clever statement... but I'm intrigued more by what you're not telling us than what purpose your statement serves. So what parts are fully imported from Japan? Given Nissan runs a lean ship these days, I would hazzard a guess there are many common parts with Titan as other siblings.
There are no parts being imported form Japan that I'm aware of (although I believe some of the dies were made in Japan and shipped over) - the engine and transmission are manufactured in Tennessee; the frame and body parts are stamped/made in Mississippi and none of them are shared by any other platform.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 12-23-2006 at 07:15 PM.
12-23-2006, 07:13 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by Caps94ZODG
CEO I have talked to, his company is worldwide.
the whole where does the profit go. Well since I was the one that originated it. Well I guess that goes back to me. You say DCX is a germany company and the money goes to Germany. Yet you said the exact opposite to it in other threads..
Yes, DCX is a German company but not because of where the profits go…I said it’s a German company because it is 100% owed by a German company.
I’ve also said that while I reject the “where the profits go” argument; for those who hold to that mantra as the be all/end of what is and isn’t “American” would, to be consistent, have to call DCX a foreign company since all its profits go to Germany. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Tell me, do you claim that DCX is an American company or a foreign company by your "where the profits go" standard (or does DCX get a pass from your measuring stick because of what it used to be)?
So a CEO of a global corperation based here in the U.S says alot of things in your post are not correct and way off base.
Many people here on this site from blue collar workers to people that work in some form for GM, Ford or DCX say your way off base.
Someone freom Australia comes in here and tells you your off base.
Tell me how can we all be wrong yet your the only one that is right in your thinking???? Not possible...Not possible at all. You twist things aroung to suit your argument. Pick apart peoples post to make a point about something thats not relevant to what was asked half the time,. Use long drawn out pragraphs to state a case that might be way off of what is asked. Nice try but your rehashing, redirecting and reusing everything that has been said to make a statement. So far this is the third thread about the same tired stuff you promote, yet another person again takes a look at it and sees through it. SSBaby, and before him Proud Pony and so on. Every time we bring up a valid point you say its junk. or red hering or whatever and the way I see it is your here for one reason, not because you had F bodies but to speak out in your ideas of what you think is right and wrong and whats fair. It is people like you that think that its okay to buy Nissans and Toyotas and its okay. it still helps the economy..it doesnt..
Many people here on this site from blue collar workers to people that work in some form for GM, Ford or DCX say your way off base.
Someone freom Australia comes in here and tells you your off base.
Tell me how can we all be wrong yet your the only one that is right in your thinking???? Not possible...Not possible at all. You twist things aroung to suit your argument. Pick apart peoples post to make a point about something thats not relevant to what was asked half the time,. Use long drawn out pragraphs to state a case that might be way off of what is asked. Nice try but your rehashing, redirecting and reusing everything that has been said to make a statement. So far this is the third thread about the same tired stuff you promote, yet another person again takes a look at it and sees through it. SSBaby, and before him Proud Pony and so on. Every time we bring up a valid point you say its junk. or red hering or whatever and the way I see it is your here for one reason, not because you had F bodies but to speak out in your ideas of what you think is right and wrong and whats fair. It is people like you that think that its okay to buy Nissans and Toyotas and its okay. it still helps the economy..it doesnt..
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 12-23-2006 at 07:39 PM.
12-23-2006, 07:57 PM
#72
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and there you have it people..right from his mouth. We are wrong. So no matter what we say we are wrong.
ohh I think you know where I stand on the DCX american company topic. Have I ever said I did?? Nope.
I did more than polling data I went to your arguments source. Talked to a CEO on your thoughts. A man that has served this country and now runs a company with the full intent of this country as part of its well being is wrong??
Many people on this board that have the same views and input from many walks of life are all wrong???
A man from another country sharing the same views as us..an outsider..he is wrong??
I do not have to show you anything Robert I just proved right there you here for one thing to cause problems. Your narrow minded thinking and provoking the same arguments over and over again. More than one person per topic thread has come in and proven your statements to be flawed beyond all doubt yet were wrong.
Thats why I am not going to put a 2 page tiraid of how I feel. Anyone want to know go look up my posts in the various threads here. Its there for all the world to see. I am done with someone that thinks he is the only right one and a wide variety of people from all walks of life are wrong. Why do you post your comments on here?? no reason too. Were not ever going to think the way you do. I have more pride in what I beleive in what America Stands for than opinions like the ones you state that have been dismissed over and over and over again. Someone proudly flying a Nissan products emblem on a board devoted to domestic culture says alot about you. If you think it helps the American economy I guess it does cus were all wrong in our thinking..But hey at least I can say one thing. I like others here have not been brainwashed into your mentality that it doesnt matter. Cus as it has been stated, Yes it does.
Good job Robert..all I needed to know. Now I know where you stand. Right behind you veil of secerecy....
Merry Christmas Everyone...
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; 12-23-2006 at 08:04 PM.
12-23-2006, 08:35 PM
#73
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Caps,
Well you know, if GM hadn’t stopped making them my next car might well have been another Camaro instead of a 350Z so yes, I'll display its symbol because that's what I drive for fun right now…I sure as hell will never buy a Mustang so the field of choices was pretty bare a couple of years ago.
I’m glad we both agree that DCX is a foreign company and not an American one.
I don’t for one moment doubt the patriotism of your one CEO but one CEO from one company does not a substantial argument make. Why don’t you talk with the CEOs of the Fortune 1,000, compile the data and then come back with some discussion.
Large multi-national businesses have one and only one substantial goal and that is to make money and increase their stockholder’s value…your belief or lack of belief in that statement has no bearing on its truth…your trying to ascribe patriotic feelings and emotions to a non-emotional entity will not make it so.
Well you know, if GM hadn’t stopped making them my next car might well have been another Camaro instead of a 350Z so yes, I'll display its symbol because that's what I drive for fun right now…I sure as hell will never buy a Mustang so the field of choices was pretty bare a couple of years ago.
I’m glad we both agree that DCX is a foreign company and not an American one.
I don’t for one moment doubt the patriotism of your one CEO but one CEO from one company does not a substantial argument make. Why don’t you talk with the CEOs of the Fortune 1,000, compile the data and then come back with some discussion.
Large multi-national businesses have one and only one substantial goal and that is to make money and increase their stockholder’s value…your belief or lack of belief in that statement has no bearing on its truth…your trying to ascribe patriotic feelings and emotions to a non-emotional entity will not make it so.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 12-23-2006 at 10:12 PM.
12-23-2006, 09:35 PM
#74
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And the above pissing contest is the exact reason why I refrain from these threads...
Good luck to all involved. Keep buying your Nissans. I'll continue to by GM products. And when the last domestic car rolls off the line from the last domestic company left standing, I'll be sure to smile and think of conversations like these...
Good luck to all involved. Keep buying your Nissans. I'll continue to by GM products. And when the last domestic car rolls off the line from the last domestic company left standing, I'll be sure to smile and think of conversations like these...
12-23-2006, 11:27 PM
#75
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Tell me how can we all be wrong yet your the only one that is right in your thinking???? Not possible...Not possible at all. You twist things aroung to suit your argument. Pick apart peoples post to make a point about something thats not relevant to what was asked half the time,. Use long drawn out pragraphs to state a case that might be way off of what is asked. Nice try but your rehashing, redirecting and reusing everything that has been said to make a statement. So far this is the third thread about the same tired stuff you promote, yet another person again takes a look at it and sees through it. SSBaby, and before him Proud Pony and so on. Every time we bring up a valid point you say its junk. or red hering or whatever and the way I see it is your here for one reason, not because you had F bodies but to speak out in your ideas of what you think is right and wrong and whats fair. It is people like you that think that its okay to buy Nissans and Toyotas and its okay. it still helps the economy..it doesnt..