Robert_Nashville

The profits go to the stockholders; just as they do for every corporation...in the case of a giant multi-national corporation (which most major auto manufactureres are); they go to millions of stockholders all over the world (one of the very reasons why the "where the profits go" argument" is hogwash).

That aside, all the major tranplants who are manufacturing in the U.S. pump billions into R&D and design centers and test facilities and manufacturing facilities in the U.S. too and, a little known fact, most of those manufacture EXPORT vehicles made in those U.S. facilities to markets outside the U.S. as well.

I relaly can't see how anyone can call Chrysler "American" when you have German executives calling the shots and making the decisions and completely in charge of what Chrysler does.

Most people now acknowldege that it was, indeed, a take-over, not a merger and all the profits do go back to and belong to Germany reguardless of where money gets spent later on.

I'm always happy to compare GM/Ford against Japanese-American companies and have done so many times.

It's usually at the end of such threads that the "where the progits go" mantra raises its ugly head as the last salvo of a failed argument.

I'm not really asking that everyone consider a U.S.built Honda to be as "American" as a U.S. built Chevrolet or Pontiac; what would be nice, however, is an acknowledgement of the VERY positive effect that the international nameplates (those who manufacture here) have had and continue to have on the U.S. economy and for a little consistency in the arguments made.

SSbaby

Robert, I think the point you are conveniently neglecting to comment on... is the fact that American cars are more than just Japanese makers with a US base.

Your comment on shareholders from all over the world receiving profits holds true, however, you would know that these stakeholders are 'based' in the US and invest in the US to design vehicles principally for US interests. As I said, it's much different to designing Camrys in Japan and setting up manufacture in the US. The Japanese automakers use US consumers to make profit, not because they are motivated by the notion of providing American jobs.

Robert_Nashville

SSbaby,

No large multi-national corporation, reguardless of its "roots" (and that very much includes GM/Ford) has any signigicant motivation of providing "American" jobs - that may have been true many years ago; but it is not where business is today.

Individuals are/can be motivated by patrioic feelings and loyalty to fellow employees but the only REAL motivation for any large business is to make a profit for its shareholders and if they could get buy without any employees anywhere they would do so.

That's why GM and others will continue to outsource work outside of the U.S....that's why it will build the next Camaro outside of the U.S....that's why GM and everyone else are falling all over themselves to invest in China and other third-world/emerging economies.

GM is and will continue to do what will make GM a profit; that is not evil...it just is what it is...and if, to make a profit, they need to continue to move jobs offshore they will do so just as will every other auto manufacturer.

No...I'm not saying GM is "unpatriotic"...I'm saying it's neither patriotic or unpatriotic...its a business; nothing more and nothing less.

AlfredB18

So, (insert non-US based automakers here) automatically have a strike against them because they are based somewhere else?

That's like saying your aunt would be your uncle if she had a package. Some things you just can't help.

Nissan designed the Titan in the USA. I'm sure Toyota's design studio in KKKalifornia means nothing. If it passes gubbermint testing, it's designed for "US interests" as far as I am concerned, whether or not I explore buying said vehicles.

Then again, GM isn't here to make profit. They just like handing out jobs via the job bank. If you are not in business to make profit, you may as well go home.

IREngineer

Has anyone else noticed the coincidence of Threxx leaving and Robert arriving? They even have similar personalities/views...no offense Robert

SSbaby

It might sound weird for someone in Australia to comment about American automakers... but it's interesting from my point of view to debate these topics as people are now also starting to call Toyota and Mitsubishi Australian companies. Traditionally, there were two traditional Aussie companies (even though both have American parents) Holden and Ford. Now tell me that a Camry in Australia is different to a Camry in the US allowing for the fact that one is RHD, the other LHD? Tell me also where Camry originated and tell me about Toyota's stakeholders, R&D facilities and the place where Camry's design was originally conceived - there is a common link there, all data seems to emanate from Japan.

On the other hand, Holden have designed a car (from the ground up) unique to Australia although it will spawn design derivatives for its parent company's divisions. Having designed a vehicle in Australia means that Holden worked closely with local suppliers as well as overseas suppliers. It really couldn't source parts from it's global parts bin as nearly every part is new. With this in mind, please tell me which is more Australian, Holden or Toyota or, if you prefer, which is less Australian? The point here is that if you buy a Holden, the money is being used to continue to develop the Commodore,whereas if you buy a Toyota, the money is being sent to Japan for them to decide what global vehicle you should next be driving.

I hope I've made my point a little clearer this time.

Robert_Nashville

SSbaby,

I'm not suggesting that we start calling Toyota an "American" company; I"m suggesting that the billions of dollars of capital investment (not to mention the significantly more dollars poured into suppliers and wages, infastructure, taxes paid, etc.) by the international nameplates who now manufacture in the U.S. not be so casually dismissed.

I'm not suggesting that Toyota is "American"; I'm suggesting that, by their very nature, calling any large, multi-national corporation "American" or "German" simply does not accurately reflect what these companies are today.

Do you not think that Toyota/Honda/Nissan and the rest work with they American suppliers for the vehicles they are building here (no matter "where" they were designed)? I can tell with with some degree of certainty that they do. For any vehicle being built in the U.S, much of the design work is done in the U.S. and vehicles designed specifically for the U.S. market have all or virtually all the design done in the U.S. Obviously it all depends on the specific model one is talking about; some are virtually "universal" and some are very specific to a particular market.

No, I wouldn't call Toyota an "American" company; but if one keeps an open mind, the real and measurable differences between a Toyota built in the U.S. and a Pontiac built in the U.S. aren't nearly as significant as they once were and as many still want to believe.

Threxx

I haven't left, just took a 10 week break or so to catch up on school and work and such - the board was taking too much of my time.

I'm 'back' though not really in full swing, not sure if I ever will or should be in as full of swing as I used to be - unhealthy.

But no, I'm not at all the same as Robert Nashville - in fact I've called the guy out on the fact that he works for Nissan yet pretends to be unbiased toward Nissan. But whatever, I won't get into that. I'm being passive for the moment.

SSbaby

Robert

But you didn't answer my earlier question... what is the difference between the Camry of Japan vs the Camry of US vs the Camry of Australia (again, apart from steering wheel configurations)? The design work was undertaken by Japan. The 'other stuff' relates to manufacturing infrastructure... Please don't tell me there is serious local design input undertaken by US Toyota engineers or Aus Toyota Engineers?

I have an insider friend who works for Toyota here in Melbourne. When I asked him about a local engineer whom I read in a magazine was involved in the Camrys development cycle)... the story went along the lines of he had travelled countless times to Tokyo to convince engineers of the reason why Camry should offer a strut brace... and had apparently succeeded in convincing the Japanese engineers. My friend told me in no uncertain manner that "that is BS... we do what Japan tells us to do". He hadn't even heard of the said engineer (trust me, he would know who the main persons are as he regularly meets with the Toyota CEO).

Holden have far more design freedoms and are a jewel in the GM crown atm. Of course I'd say that because I'm a Holden man!

Jason E

And the guy from Australia gets it, but the American does not

As for me, seeing as how I'm the only one here involved in the retail sales of DCX products, let me just say that a lot of the actual CUSTOMERS believe they're buying American. Indeed, I have used the "where the profits go" mantra on here before, and its true. Its sad, because I'd really prefer to be selling GM products at this point, but I've already mentioned my reasons for selling DCX on here before...it has nothing to do with the product.

Customers can see the news, and see where the domestic auto industry, which includes Chrysler itself, supports more jobs, has more retirees, a higher domestic content level, etc., than the Accord parked next door. I've actually been quite surprised, and pleased, to see the intelligence level of the average new car buyer that comes through here. Obviously, Chrysler products are far more grey on this subject than GM, because of the ownership structure. But when it comes down to it, the average Dodge Dakota is supporting a HELL of a lot more Americans than a Titan...from production to R&D to retirees.

Period.

Derek M

Which automotive companies shut down many if not engineering and production facilities, to produce items, components and entire vehicles for the United States military war effort 60 years ago in WWII?

Hint items produced but not limited to: diesel engines for submarines, gas and diesel engines for tanks and artillery vehicles, various light and medium duty cargo and troop carriers, the infamous GP or Jeep, the Hellcat tank, the Sherman tank, the TBM Avenger torpedo bombers, FM-2 Wildcat fighters among many others.

The above efforts by men and women of the United States along with the companies they were employed would classify as patriotic.

Robert_Nashville

I can't speak for what's going on in Austraila but every major manufacturere has design facilities here in the U.S. and tens of millions are spent every year just in salaries alone; I'm sure some think that's all for show but companies don't spend that kind of money just to "look good"...they are real designers doing real designs (and for the most part, come out of the same California design schools that GM and Ford and everybody else hires).

At any rate, I thought I did answer your question or maybe I didn't understand what you were asking...absolutely, models like the Camry that are sold in many markets probaby are designed in Japan and there is little/minor differences beteeen the one sold in Austraila vs. the U.S. vs. whereever but I would suggest if you look at the models Toyota only sells here (or primairly here in the U.S.) you would find a different story. It's that way with the Nissan full sized trucks as someone mentioned earlier, all of that line was designed specifically in the U.S. for the U.S. - you'll never see on in Japan (or Europe for that matter).

There is also a very significant difference to a country's economy when a vehicle is built in that country rather than imported reguardless of where the primary design work happened.

Robert_Nashville

I'm sure many Americans think Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge are still "American" but a hell of a lot of "Americans" couldn't tell you what decade this is if they couldn't look it up on the internet and heaven help you if you ask a really difficult question like "how many continents are there in the world". So; I’m sure many customers think they are “buying American” but thinking so doesn’t make it so.

I’m not saying that Chrysler doesn’t have a bigger presence in the U.S. than a Toyota/Honda/Nissan, etc that that only makes them bigger in this market; not more American. If the number of plants/employees/retirees, etc. are the main measure of what is an American company then let me ask you, if we reach the point that, say, Toyota does have more plants/employees/retirees in the U.S. than a Chrysler or a Ford will they then be an “American” company? I doubt very many here would call Toyota “American” even then and if they wouldn’t, then the issue of who has the most plants/employees isn’t a valid argument for making that determination.

As to your Dakota/Titan comparison you may well be right if you look at total sales of each (I don’t know how Dakota’s total sales for any recent years) but the Titan is pretty low production so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dakota sells more than the Titan. That said, I’m not sure why you comparing a compact truck to a full-sized truck? At any rate, the comparison falls apart when you compare on a per unit basis for many of the same reasons that number of facilities/employees in the U.S. isn’t a valid argument for deciding what is or isn’t “American”.

Because of a similar argument n a thread of a couple of months ago, I went to a Nissan dealer’s lot and a Dodge dealer’s lot and looked at the NA parts content of a Titan and a Dodge (1/2 ton); I may be wrong about the exact figures but I do remember that there was approximately a 14 point spread (I believe the Titan was at 61% and the Dodge at 75%). Yes, the Dodge had more NA parts but 14% is not exactly a huge spread and if that’s the sole basis for calling the Dodge truck “American” then I would suggest it’s a shaky basis (and one that could easily be erased as time goes on).

As to R&D and design and production there simply isn’t a measurable difference between a Dodge truck and a Nissan truck; the only one that would favor Dodge is the number of retirees; frankly, I’m not sure the number of retirees any one company has is really germane to a discussion about where Chrysler group is today.

Robert_Nashville

And did you notice that you have to pull an example from 70 years ago in order to have an example?

Frankly, the German manufacturers and the Japanese manufacturers were just as "patriotic" toward their countries in WWII as well (albeit on the other side) and you have my word that if Japan ever attacks Pearl Harbor again I'll be the first in line to blow up the local Nissan plants here in Tennessee and Mississippi...likewise for BMW's plants in Pennsylvania (I think) should a German U-boat ever show up off the coast of North Carolina and shell the beach.

I've never said companies weren't patriotic in the past and I've never disparaged what GM/Ford/Chrysler, etc have meant to this country historically...but I'm talking about where they are TODAY.

Derek M

Sorry it's a real example. It's very real. It's ingrained into our history, it's what makes America what it is today. 60 years ago isn't that all long ago. Not even one life time. How quickly we are to forget and brush this off as just some little event. Hardly. This effort by these companies and their employees was crucial in providing our war machine, men and women of our armed forces, the gear and equipment needed to win the war. If this effort did not happen the likelihood of us speaking another language as our national spoken language is and was very real. The United States industrial machine couldn’t be matched.

When revenues and profits aren't reflected in yen or some other none USD currency.
When the stock is listed on the NYSE as domestic.
When the company employs more Americans than non-Americans.
When the bulk of company structure is within the shores of the US.
When the company headquarters resides within the shores of the US.
When the bulk of the company partnerships and relationships heavily reside within the shores of the US.
When the company contributes more to the GNP than American equivalents.
When the company produces substantially more cars in the US than they import.

When the company meets the above criteria, then the company can be considered good for America and Americans. Till then it's a token effort at best and an attempt to shroud and cloud the less informed that these companies have magically become American and are somehow great for our future and well being.