This phenomenon was well known to the public 10 years ago when the Toyota Corolla and the Chevy Prism came off the same line. What has GM been doing about it in those last 10 years? Either that ship is awfully slow to turn, or they've been doing 360s.

(Actually, for a fair test, they would have had folks comparing a Honda-badged Malibu too. Wonder how that would turn out....)

Also, this is the Future Vehicle forum, so we all like to look at pictures of 2008 Malibus and 2009 G8s. But the general public doesn't look forward, they only look backwards. Considering the average person might only buy 2-3 cars a decade, something like the 1996 Corsica still has much more bearing on "perception" than does a fancy concept sitting at the auto show.

 

Okay, I admit, I work in the retail industry and unfortunately like a cop who has been doing his job for a long time, I'm a bit jaded. However, yes, I think the US is chock full of full time blithering idiots. I try to tell myself everyday that I'm just letting a few bad apples ruin the rest, it just doesn't seem to sink in though.

 

Amen.

Idiots outnumber those with truely functional grey-matter by about 10:1 IMO. I like to think of it this way...
We are all born idiots - with the exception of breathing, eating, and pooping, we need to be taught everything else in life.
Some make the effort to learn, some don't.

Then you have the ones who get brainwashed by friends who are brainwashed themselves (blind leading the blind type scenario). I think this has been properly labelled "peer-pressure", or "casual persuasion"?!?!

Regardless, if ANY of you don't think the world is full of idiots, just sit in a car dealer's lobby for a few hours and listen to the conversations that take place.

The good news is - you can still like or love these people too, you don't have to execute them or anything like that!

Know what is really sad though... in these last 4 years, it really has not gotten a lot better.
*GM is still kicking major **** in initial quality and customer satisfaction, yet Toyota is still gaining on them.
*Products were good then, better now, yet people still think "American = junk".
*Toyota has the worst/bland styling on the planet, yet they sell in droves.
*GM and Ford both have equal or better corporate fuel ratios than many Asian companies, yet the public thinks "foreign cars get better mileage". (just looked at a window sticker on a 2007 Sonata yesterday in fact - $25,072, 20mpg city, 30 mpg hwy, V6, auto... that is NOT so great mileage IMO)
*GM and Ford have both recently handed exotics their ****, for fractions of the price, yet American Engineering is 2nd best to "car people".
*Domestic recalls still get frontpage treatment with rehashing of all recent recalls, while recalls of Asian vehicles reaches new highs but they are relegated to 10-line side bars on page 13.

It goes on and on - you either get it by now, or I am wasting my time typing.

Honestly - to me, it's very sad that things don't appear to be changing despite the great efforts of GM and Ford.

PS - It says a lot that a fairly-new player like Hyundai (a word most rednecks can't even pronounce correctly) can actually make HUGE instrides and grow exponentially against a company like Toyota or Honda, when GM and Ford both offer product of similar quality and price.
Similarly, it seems that GM administered a death warrant for the Daewoo name in 2001 when they jointly bought them out with Suzuki, because Daewoo was coming on strong for a while too. Now, you really never see a Daewoo-branded vehicle here in America, and Chevy only got 1 US model out of it for now - the Aveo. Yet there are various Suzuki models like the Verona, Forenza, and Reno that are all doing pretty well. Same car, same designers, different name.
PERCEPTION guys... perception. It's all about public perception, and right now the overwhelming perception is that anything with a foreign name is better than anything from Chevy, GMC, Buick, Cadillac, Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury.
With better products, we keep saying "give it time".... well, how much time must we give it?

 

I suspect Toyota has actually taken a hit in percieved quality with their numerous recalls of late. Mitsubishi actually lost a ton of sales, and came as close as any Japanese manufacturer has of going under because of defects that were covered up then became public. Hyundai is the only manufacturer from the Korean invasion to have made an impact and grow here in the US.

On the US side, Ford hasn't had a new vehicle recall or quality issues in at least 5 or 6 years, GM actually makes a few cars that beat import brand competitors in comparison tests and is competitive in sales (Solstice, G6 & Aura), and the LX cars have gained a reputation of being durable, well built cars (a 180 from previous Chryslers). I'm not a big truck fan, but the interiors of the new GMT-900s still make the trucks offered by Nissan and Toyota look years behind whereas in 2003, you could see things weren't going that way..

So I'd say quite a few things have changed since 2003.

 

No doubt... I'm not denying that they are getting even better, but there's even a few charts in that old thread that shows Buick at or near the top of the list in several categories - and MILES ahead of Toyota, Nissan, and other Asian names. Caddy was up there too IIRC. One of those was a Vehicle Dependability Study that was based on years of service to boot.
So I'm saying that they were already making good, competitive vehicles before 2003, as well as during 2003.

Now as always, styling is subjective - so if you don't like how it looks or something... fine. But the ongoing perception that causes people to think GM or Ford = "junk" is NOT styling. Recall a study (posted by Scott IIRC) in which Chevy emblems were attached to a Honda or Toyota car, and people in a focus group rated the car lower than the exact same car with a Toyota or Honda logo on the front... SAME CAR!!! That's bad.

I just think that the big 2.5 have gotten a bad rap, and the press is not helping them earn their way out of it either.
Don't misunderstand - I want no free-pass for a domestic... ... I just want equal billing and fair/equal treatment by the media for all - THEN we can let the chips fall where they may.
Since 2003, it doesn't seem to have happened... at least not yet.

 

I agree. Perception is still the Big 2.5's worst enemy. GM's product line has improved vastly since '03 yet most people wouldnt consider a GM product. And the only thing you hear about GM and Ford in the news anymore is how bad they're doing and how much market share they're losing.

As much as I hate to admit it, Perception could be the one problem that GM and Ford will never conquer. Most people in their late 20's thru 40's today have mostly seen the trash years of the Big 3 and those garbage '80's cars are the things plastered in their mind when they think of domestic cars.

And who wouldve thought a thread from '03 would still be going

 

Old thread, contemporary message- GM needs to build the best products on the planet, competitively priced- Then have the final laugh when the buying public figures that out and votes with their pocketbook-

The GM powertrain is great- look at how they have been know to under-rate the engine output, compared to Honda, Toyota and Ford, who are having class-action suits because the products didn't meet their claimed output.

Maybe GM shoots themselves trying to be all things to all people. They need a couple GOOD, cheap reliable grocery-getters at the bottom of the market- good mileage, cheap, fun-to-drive. Some refined luxury cars with all the bells to go against the Germans, toe to toe- a nice sporty car, powerful, stick, maybe convertible to hoist the colors- When I see a Buick SUV or a sport Malibu, I am not sure what I am supposed to be seeing. FWD Monte Carlos?!? If I want a real work truck, it probably doesn't need leather and a DVD satellite Nav system- more like posi, gears, and H.D. suspension, cooling, and brakes. Anybody try to by a stripper, lately? You know, vinyl seats, rubber floor, wind-up windows and radio delete. Doesn't exist, I have to pay thousands more for "options" that I may not want- courtesy light group, automatic tranny, A/C.... The customer is the one paying Lutz's salary, he had better see that they get what they want-

 

HUH? You think Ford OVER-RATES their engines?
With the exception of the 1998 Cobra fiasco (which was actually an exhaust problem - not a "rating" problem) I can't think of examples of Ford grossly over-rating their powerplant outputs.

I'd say the most recent Terminator Cobras (rated at 390 but blowing over 400-410 honestly), the GT (rated at 550 but pounding out closer to 600), the Lightnings, the new GT500, and numerous other examples seem to indicate that Ford has been fudging the other way pretty strong.

Ya lost me on that one. Take Ford off your list, and I'll play along with the other stuff you had to say.

 

from:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...rticleId=93320

the first link I could find, there are many more-

"The rear suspension worked well, but the revised 4.6-liter, DOHC, 32-valve V8 would wind up an embarrassment to Ford. Originally rated at 320 horsepower (up from 305 in previous-year Cobras), many owners were distressed to discover that their engines were often making less than 300 horsepower. Fueled by Internet bulletin board postings was a class-action suit by Cobra owners demanding refunds or new engines, Ford desperately trying to satisfy them and the suspension of Cobra production during the 2000 model year. While 8,095 Cobras escaped Ford during '99, only 454 made it out during 2000."

 

Hah 99 was the year some GT's were smoking Cobras

 

Ford? Are you kidding me *****?

The ONLY instance of a Ford engine not meeting it's output was with the revised 1888 SVT Cobra. That descrepency was traced to at least 1 OEM manufacturer going off spec. THERE WAS NO CLASS ACTION SUIT because Ford made the necessary changes at no charge! .

(and yes, some '99 Cobra owners had the horror of discovering...at the darnest moments... they were no quicker than a Mustang GT)

All other SVT engines from Lightning to the SC Cobras to the current GT500, as well as the Bullitt and Mach1 Mustangs have all been underrated. From just 10 horses all the way up to in excess of 50 (ie: the Ford GT).

Toyota doesn't seem to be.

Not sure of what you're saying here.

Only if you're a fleet buyer, use your truck strictly for farm or construction work, or are a neanderthal.

No one buys strippers anymore. Most people who buy cars get as much stuff as they can afford. Been through this a few times here.

Last I saw, GM was still by far the largest player in the US, and most everything Lutz created on his watch has been a hit compared to what it replaced.

To be perfectly blunt about, there isn't enough vinyl-buying, window-cranking, rubber-floor-wearing, radio-deleting people left in polite society to warrant spending the extra cash to create those items and sell enough to make up for the investment. Air conditioning in cars today is a consumer birthright.

Sure, I believe GM has gotten carried away with the "Option Groups" thing. It sucks, and all else being equal, I'd buy something that doesn't have DRL & power everything plus nav if GM forced me to take those items. But in a day when most new car buyers not paying for college are getting their cars loaded, there aren't many people like me who want roll down windows, and there sure as h*ll are even fewer like you who would actually order rubber floor covering in a car instead of carpeting or vinyl seats instead of either cloth or leather.

 

To go back to an earlier point, I think most people won't admit to being influenced by a commercial b/c it seems a little shallow or something.

But commercials seem to have an almost subliminal influence. People can't really say why they like one car over another sometimes, but seeing at least 1 car commercial an hour tends to build impressions, or perceptions, whichever you prefer. And I am seeing a lot of GM commercials again, thank god, but there are still more import adds floating the airwaves..
And don't forget magazine adds...I see more 2 page GM competitor adds per magazine, and the single page GM add is usually a truck or SUV.