Pontiac Solstice
08-07-2002, 02:35 PM
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Pontiac Solstice
This comes from today's "carconnection". There isn't much reading between the lines needed for this article:
"THE 15-WEEK CAR?
It could be hard to beat the lead time of the Pontiac Solstice. The prototype, which made a big splash at the Detroit auto show last January, went “from sketch to a full running metal car in less than 15 weeks,” noted Mark Reuss, GM’s Executive Director of Vehicle Architecture. At a seminar on industry collaboration, Reuss suggested the quick development of the sleek concept sports car resulted from tight cooperation between GM and such outside partners as Roush Engineering. The challenge, Reuss said after his speech, will be getting the Solstice into the market in benchmark time. Though it won rave reviews—including the praise of GM “car czar” Bob Lutz—the automaker is still struggling to come up with a viable business equation for what it expects would be, at most, a low-volume niche vehicle."
"THE 15-WEEK CAR?
It could be hard to beat the lead time of the Pontiac Solstice. The prototype, which made a big splash at the Detroit auto show last January, went “from sketch to a full running metal car in less than 15 weeks,” noted Mark Reuss, GM’s Executive Director of Vehicle Architecture. At a seminar on industry collaboration, Reuss suggested the quick development of the sleek concept sports car resulted from tight cooperation between GM and such outside partners as Roush Engineering. The challenge, Reuss said after his speech, will be getting the Solstice into the market in benchmark time. Though it won rave reviews—including the praise of GM “car czar” Bob Lutz—the automaker is still struggling to come up with a viable business equation for what it expects would be, at most, a low-volume niche vehicle."
08-07-2002, 02:41 PM
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But it's nice. Any new GM product is "taking money away from our new Camaro". Camaro isn't the only thing GM needs to worry about, and resurrecting it won't be the answer to all their problems. Right now, this year, today, the Solstice is helping Pontiac out with the larger markets more than the Firebird.
08-07-2002, 03:02 PM
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Now if we could only get him to deny the existance of the Silverado SS (I can get 345hp in any full size GM truck and put cheesy wheels on it myself, thanks....) and the SSR (WTF WERE YOU PEOPLE THINKING?????) we'd be all set.
08-07-2002, 03:28 PM
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Right now, this year, today, the Solstice is helping Pontiac out with the larger markets more than the Firebird.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well if Pontiac(GM as Well) actually gave damn about the Firebird then we wouldnt be having this dicussion. Even with the GTO and the Soltice there will be a big void in Pontiacs lineup IMO. They with be lacking the the bada$$ stepchild so to speak. Pontiac lost me awhile ago so they go ahead and build cars they think are gonna compete with BMW's (LMAO). Solstice vs Z3 GTO vs 3 series ???? Aztek vs X5 LMFAO !!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by mike24 (edited August 07, 2002).]
Well if Pontiac(GM as Well) actually gave damn about the Firebird then we wouldnt be having this dicussion. Even with the GTO and the Soltice there will be a big void in Pontiacs lineup IMO. They with be lacking the the bada$$ stepchild so to speak. Pontiac lost me awhile ago so they go ahead and build cars they think are gonna compete with BMW's (LMAO). Solstice vs Z3 GTO vs 3 series ???? Aztek vs X5 LMFAO !!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by mike24 (edited August 07, 2002).]
08-07-2002, 04:02 PM
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I don't mind the Solstice existing. I think it would be a cool, successful little car IF the price is right. GM, don't bother if you can't bring it in around $20 grand out the door like Bob Lutz stated at NAIAS. GM is covering the upper-echelon of performance (C6, GTO, CTSi). We don't need another $30k+ performance machine. A cheap, well performing 4 banger Solstice, and of course, a new Camaro completes the lineup.
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[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited August 07, 2002).]
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Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited August 07, 2002).]
08-07-2002, 06:30 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mervz:
remember, this is the car that is sucking resources out of our next gen camaro... </font>
remember, this is the car that is sucking resources out of our next gen camaro... </font>
About a month ago, the infamous quote about the need to find a suitable chassis for Camaro was made. I take that to mean that for some reason or another (not that I believe it or not, but just bear with me here) that "sigma" is unsuitable for it.
Assuming that what was meant by that remark was that sigma is a little too heavy, or a little too expensive, or a little too complex, or whatever, a RWD chassis pieced together from GM's parts bin (say the new Cavalier structure modified for RWD with some modified sigma components...ie: differential and some suspension pieces) could possibly help rather than hurt Camaro's chances.
I think we can all agree that there is no way in h*ll GM is going to create a one off chassis for Solstice. This hybrid "chassis", has been said, will need to sell 300,000 units worldwide to be profitable. Solstice and whatever models are developed for Europe almost certainly won't meet the 300,000 mark. But if you throw in Camaro, with potential sales of 100,000, and a whole lot more if it takes the place of the Cavalier coupe, makes Camaro look real good in this scenario.
As far as dimensions, Solstice can be widened a bit, while Camaro becomes a bit narrower (do we really need a sports car wider than Corvette, or even MonteCarlo?). Camaro would also follow C6's lead of lighter weight for more performance & better economy.
Throw in the fact that not only does Pontiac wants Solstice pretty badly, but this is also "product czar" Bob Lutz's baby, if there is any way he or those who work for him can get it into production, they are going to move mountains to do it. This could in fact be the big break that Camaro needs.
Instead of Solstice taking money away from Camaro, Camaro's potential sales volume may be the key to making the Solstice a reality.
How's that for potential irony.
08-12-2002, 11:07 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
I kind of question that Mervz, and here's why.
About a month ago, the infamous quote about the need to find a suitable chassis for Camaro was made. I take that to mean that for some reason or another (not that I believe it or not, but just bear with me here) that "sigma" is unsuitable for it.
Assuming that what was meant by that remark was that sigma is a little too heavy, or a little too expensive, or a little too complex, or whatever, a RWD chassis pieced together from GM's parts bin (say the new Cavalier structure modified for RWD with some modified sigma components...ie: differential and some suspension pieces) could possibly help rather than hurt Camaro's chances.
I think we can all agree that there is no way in h*ll GM is going to create a one off chassis for Solstice. This hybrid "chassis", has been said, will need to sell 300,000 units worldwide to be profitable. Solstice and whatever models are developed for Europe almost certainly won't meet the 300,000 mark. But if you throw in Camaro, with potential sales of 100,000, and a whole lot more if it takes the place of the Cavalier coupe, makes Camaro look real good in this scenario.
As far as dimensions, Solstice can be widened a bit, while Camaro becomes a bit narrower (do we really need a sports car wider than Corvette, or even MonteCarlo?). Camaro would also follow C6's lead of lighter weight for more performance & better economy.
Throw in the fact that not only does Pontiac wants Solstice pretty badly, but this is also "product czar" Bob Lutz's baby, if there is any way he or those who work for him can get it into production, they are going to move mountains to do it. This could in fact be the big break that Camaro needs.
Instead of Solstice taking money away from Camaro, Camaro's potential sales volume may be the key to making the Solstice a reality.
How's that for potential irony.
</font>
I kind of question that Mervz, and here's why.
About a month ago, the infamous quote about the need to find a suitable chassis for Camaro was made. I take that to mean that for some reason or another (not that I believe it or not, but just bear with me here) that "sigma" is unsuitable for it.
Assuming that what was meant by that remark was that sigma is a little too heavy, or a little too expensive, or a little too complex, or whatever, a RWD chassis pieced together from GM's parts bin (say the new Cavalier structure modified for RWD with some modified sigma components...ie: differential and some suspension pieces) could possibly help rather than hurt Camaro's chances.
I think we can all agree that there is no way in h*ll GM is going to create a one off chassis for Solstice. This hybrid "chassis", has been said, will need to sell 300,000 units worldwide to be profitable. Solstice and whatever models are developed for Europe almost certainly won't meet the 300,000 mark. But if you throw in Camaro, with potential sales of 100,000, and a whole lot more if it takes the place of the Cavalier coupe, makes Camaro look real good in this scenario.
As far as dimensions, Solstice can be widened a bit, while Camaro becomes a bit narrower (do we really need a sports car wider than Corvette, or even MonteCarlo?). Camaro would also follow C6's lead of lighter weight for more performance & better economy.
Throw in the fact that not only does Pontiac wants Solstice pretty badly, but this is also "product czar" Bob Lutz's baby, if there is any way he or those who work for him can get it into production, they are going to move mountains to do it. This could in fact be the big break that Camaro needs.
Instead of Solstice taking money away from Camaro, Camaro's potential sales volume may be the key to making the Solstice a reality.
How's that for potential irony.
</font>
Solstice = BAD!
First off GM is not going to make a 200+ HP version of it. When I talked to a person familar with the Camaro they even stated that the Solstice would be more Miata than anything if built and had no place even in the same room as the Camaro. Bastardizing the Camaro name in an effort to justify making a low volume Pontiac Miata is just wrong.
When Reuss said "find a suitable" platform,her was probaly referencing how Sigma in its current form wouldn't be suited to the Camaro. They will probaly have to do like Ford did with the DEW-98 platform and make a "lite" version of it stripped of expensive luxury crap to get the Mustang in at the right price.
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08-12-2002, 11:13 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
They will probaly have to do like Ford did with the DEW-98 platform and make a "lite" version of it stripped of expensive luxury crap to get the Mustang in at the right price.
</font>
They will probaly have to do like Ford did with the DEW-98 platform and make a "lite" version of it stripped of expensive luxury crap to get the Mustang in at the right price.
</font>
I can understand if the dimensioons need to be re-worked to make a CTS-like Sigma structure more suitable to be a Camaro-profile type car...
But what exactly would you 'strip' from a frame that would be deemed 'too luxurious'? I mean, it's not like there would be european leather trim on the frame rails or whatever...
08-12-2002, 11:22 AM
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Camaro taking the place of the Cavalier coupe? Or did you mean that other cars on the solstice platform would take the place of the Cavalier coupe?
IMO, the solstice would have to be stretched in both length and width to accomodate any Camaro with even a remote hint of heritage (i.e. the F-body has always been a substantial car). I don't want our own version of the Mustang II here...lets shrink the next Camaro a bit in length (while extending the wheelbase for reduced overhangs), but I don't want to see a "small" Camaro.
I think there would be too much cost involved in adapting a Camaro onto a Solstice sized chassis. Even mentioning Camaro and Cavalier on the same platform makes me want to puke.
I think we run the risk of reading Reuss's statement too literally. IMO all that's going on is they are waiting for the CAW St. Therese contract to die so they can announce the official Camaro program. The evidence suggests they've been working on a Sigma based Camaro since at least last fall and they are merely waiting for the official go to get serious with it, but much of the legwork is done already.
They can't talk about Camaro until the contract dies because CAW has a contract to make anything named Camaro at St. Therese through what, 2005 or 04? Once that contract expires I think we will see Camaro Concepts and details will be forthcoming.
From what I have read over the last couple of years, it has all come down to politics. I don't think poor sales were ever the issue. The F-bodies combined outsell the Monte Carlo...you don't see them shutting down Monte Carlo production, do you? Granted its a modified W-body but its certainly more expensive to build and capitalize than a 10 yrs old F-body.
I think the decision came down in 1998 that St. Therese was outdated and too expensive and that they wanted out. F-body is under contract to CAW at that plant through 2005, so GM decided to claim "poor sales" and shut down F-body to get out of St. Therese. Assuming all this is correct, there every reason to believe that although there hasn't been an official Camaro program since '98, GM's been working behind the scenes won't let us down....we just have to wait out the CAW contract.
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[This message has been edited by Chris 96 WS6 (edited August 12, 2002).]
IMO, the solstice would have to be stretched in both length and width to accomodate any Camaro with even a remote hint of heritage (i.e. the F-body has always been a substantial car). I don't want our own version of the Mustang II here...lets shrink the next Camaro a bit in length (while extending the wheelbase for reduced overhangs), but I don't want to see a "small" Camaro.
I think there would be too much cost involved in adapting a Camaro onto a Solstice sized chassis. Even mentioning Camaro and Cavalier on the same platform makes me want to puke.
I think we run the risk of reading Reuss's statement too literally. IMO all that's going on is they are waiting for the CAW St. Therese contract to die so they can announce the official Camaro program. The evidence suggests they've been working on a Sigma based Camaro since at least last fall and they are merely waiting for the official go to get serious with it, but much of the legwork is done already.
They can't talk about Camaro until the contract dies because CAW has a contract to make anything named Camaro at St. Therese through what, 2005 or 04? Once that contract expires I think we will see Camaro Concepts and details will be forthcoming.
From what I have read over the last couple of years, it has all come down to politics. I don't think poor sales were ever the issue. The F-bodies combined outsell the Monte Carlo...you don't see them shutting down Monte Carlo production, do you? Granted its a modified W-body but its certainly more expensive to build and capitalize than a 10 yrs old F-body.
I think the decision came down in 1998 that St. Therese was outdated and too expensive and that they wanted out. F-body is under contract to CAW at that plant through 2005, so GM decided to claim "poor sales" and shut down F-body to get out of St. Therese. Assuming all this is correct, there every reason to believe that although there hasn't been an official Camaro program since '98, GM's been working behind the scenes won't let us down....we just have to wait out the CAW contract.
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[This message has been edited by Chris 96 WS6 (edited August 12, 2002).]
08-12-2002, 11:50 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
Just out of curiosity... what kind of 'luxury crap' can be stripped from a platform? Bolts? Braces? I don't get it...
I can understand if the dimensioons need to be re-worked to make a CTS-like Sigma structure more suitable to be a Camaro-profile type car...
But what exactly would you 'strip' from a frame that would be deemed 'too luxurious'? I mean, it's not like there would be european leather trim on the frame rails or whatever...
</font>
Just out of curiosity... what kind of 'luxury crap' can be stripped from a platform? Bolts? Braces? I don't get it...
I can understand if the dimensioons need to be re-worked to make a CTS-like Sigma structure more suitable to be a Camaro-profile type car...
But what exactly would you 'strip' from a frame that would be deemed 'too luxurious'? I mean, it's not like there would be european leather trim on the frame rails or whatever...
</font>
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08-12-2002, 05:47 PM
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Just because you say it's bad for Camaro does not mean it's bad for GM! Once again, Camaro is not and should not be their first priority if they want to gain any market or otherwise improve their image.
What do you know about the upcoming Solstice platform that makes it unsuitable for anything larger?
[This message has been edited by cmc (edited August 12, 2002).]
What do you know about the upcoming Solstice platform that makes it unsuitable for anything larger?
[This message has been edited by cmc (edited August 12, 2002).]
08-13-2002, 01:41 AM
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Right now I believe that the Solstice has a less than even chance of ever seeing the light of day. Even though they called it a modified Delta...the show car was actually cobbled up from an old J body, with WRX steering rack and Buick Rendevous Versa Trac rear suspension.
With all the hype of Solstice being Lutz's "pet project"....it was looking for a while,
that Camaro might get "sucked" into being a Solstice platform mate, in order to help make a RWD Delta a reality for Solstice. I'm not sure if that danger still as eminant now, however. I say "danger" because such a platform could never have the sort of handling dynamics that Sigma, DEW98 or "DEW Lite" or any other Camaro competitor would have.
BTW...did anyone notice that the day that Solstice was introduced at the NAIAS....it was called a $20,000 car. Afew days later it became a $20-$25K car...and even later a $25-$30K car. I think it will be hard to make a case for a $30k Solstice. And I wouldn't hold my breathe on a RWD version of Delta either.
Regarding Sigma and Camaro....
Their are certain aspects of Sigma's rear suspension that won't allow rear seating for a low slung coupe like Camaro. (But would be fine for a more upright GTO type car).
If Sigma is used for Camaro....these components will have to be re-designed (and maybe even improved?!).
As far as taking cost out of Sigma for Camaro....these changes could entail replacing aluminum components with steel, and also deleting machining that allows Cadillac to plumb Sigma for it's stability control.
More to come when the time is right........
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited August 13, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited August 13, 2002).]
With all the hype of Solstice being Lutz's "pet project"....it was looking for a while,
that Camaro might get "sucked" into being a Solstice platform mate, in order to help make a RWD Delta a reality for Solstice. I'm not sure if that danger still as eminant now, however. I say "danger" because such a platform could never have the sort of handling dynamics that Sigma, DEW98 or "DEW Lite" or any other Camaro competitor would have.
BTW...did anyone notice that the day that Solstice was introduced at the NAIAS....it was called a $20,000 car. Afew days later it became a $20-$25K car...and even later a $25-$30K car. I think it will be hard to make a case for a $30k Solstice. And I wouldn't hold my breathe on a RWD version of Delta either.
Regarding Sigma and Camaro....
Their are certain aspects of Sigma's rear suspension that won't allow rear seating for a low slung coupe like Camaro. (But would be fine for a more upright GTO type car).
If Sigma is used for Camaro....these components will have to be re-designed (and maybe even improved?!).
As far as taking cost out of Sigma for Camaro....these changes could entail replacing aluminum components with steel, and also deleting machining that allows Cadillac to plumb Sigma for it's stability control.
More to come when the time is right........
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited August 13, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited August 13, 2002).]