I posted several times about how the miners trapped in Pennsylvania caused local, State, and Federal laws to be enacted in short time after the accident, yet in China - people are expendable.

Here's how it is in China...
28 Chinese miners still trapped as death toll hits 19

"Almost 6,000 workers were killed in the country's industry last year -- a rate of about 16 fatalities each day -- according to official figures."

THIS is why manufacturing jobs are going there... people are expendable there. No matter if they die in a punch press or a mine shaft... the government doesn't care. (and we ADVOCATE this inconsideration by moving there and engaging their economy anyways... )

 

Im sure the Japanese would counter with just building their trucks in the US if it proved cheaper. Anyways the chances are if you buy a GM truck it will be imported from Mexico.

 

I dont see that as being something out of place in the US or Europe. Frankly i am surprised China taxes anything for polution.

 

China: Environmental Issues

"A report released in 1998 by the World Health Organization (WHO) noted that of the ten most polluted cities in the world, seven can be found in China."

"Overall, total Chinese energy-related carbon emissions more than doubled since 1980, when the government began implementing energy conservation laws." - So their plan is working?!?!

"China is a non-Annex I country under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, meaning it has not agreed to binding emissions reductions in the Kyoto Protocol, which it ratified in August 2002. China's domestic greenhouse-gas reduction activities are based on "no-regrets" strategies in energy efficiency and conservation, clean energy supply and reforestation. "

You get the picture...

SO TELL ME AGAIN - Why do we allow ourselves to trade with these people on some proposed "parity", when they destroy the environment, allow their own people to die needlessly, and totally disregard the rest of the world's concerns for humanity?

 

You don't think that the US government imposing a 5 to 20% tax on a vehicle at point of sale would create a problem?


I want a shot of what you're drinking!

 

ProudPony we already tax vehicles at the point of sale for how much gas they consume.

GAS GUZZLER TAX
Unadjusted MPG (combined)* Tax
at least 22.5 No tax
at least 21.5, but less than 22.5 $1000
at least 20.5, but less than 21.5 $1300
at least 19.5, but less than 20.5 $1700
at least 18.5, but less than 19.5 $2100
at least 17.5, but less than 18.5 $2600
at least 16.5, but less than 17.5 $3000
at least 15.5, but less than 16.5 $3700
at least 14.5, but less than 15.5 $4500
at least 13.5, but less than 14.5 $5400
at least 12.5, but less than 13.5 $6400
less than 12.5 $7700

I think if the EPA MPG tests are changed to reflect actual driving conditions this will effect everyone and not just the rich people we love to turn upside down.

 

Our cost of living and per-capita income is a LITTLE higher that that of the typical Chinaman (for the time being).
Also, gas-guzzler tax is a little different than a tax based on engine size. At least ours is based on fuel economy, whereas theirs is based on engine displacement.

Either way, your worst guzzler tax (at $7700) if applied to a $65k hummer is only @10% of the car's price, whereas China can (and did) impose up to a 27% tax. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

Well you also have to consider that we have state taxes and sometimes you pay even more than the state percentage because the tax is charged at prediscount price.

Example -

Auto Price - 30,000
Automatic Manufacturer Discount - 10 percent
Adjusted Auto Price - 27,000
Sales Tax (Based on 3 percent) - $810
Total Price Paid by Consumer - $27,810

Auto Price - 30,000
Manufacturer Rebate Coupon - 10 Percent
Sales Tax (Based on 3 percent) - $900
Adjusted Auto Price - $30,900
Coupon Deduction - $3,000
Total Price Paid by Consumer - $27,900

Though all of this may be less than in China the concepts are the same. So consider a $7000 tax on the Hummer + 6% state sales tax at original sticker price and your looking at a closer to 20% tax on that car.

 

From a Capitalist perspective, China is pretty much Wall Street's wet dream -- authoritarian corrupt cronyist government, no health/safety/environmental laws, unionization is basically outlawed (ironically...), plenty of educated engineers, and literally a billion peasants to keep wages nice and low for basically forever. As long as the payoff and bribes don't get too onerous, there's really nothing to stop China from taking over the vast majority of the world's industrial output.

It's occurred to me that what sociologists call "Fordism" -- high industrial wages ensuring a large blue collar middle class -- has really just been a small blip in the history of industrial capitalism lasting from the 1930s to the 1980s, with the Big Three basically being the only last hold outs (making them very unpopular on Wall Street). Otherwise manufacturing is always going to gravitate where it's cheapest.

Anyway, my point is that China is being driven by systematic reasons and it's not likely that "Buy American" or mere politics can stop it.

 

Flowmotion you have a point.

 

This "problem" with outsourcing is not only effecting the US its also a problem in some European countries. Thak this example from the Washington Times.

"The "Polish plumber" has become the metaphor for the philosophical split in Europe. France has all but closed its doors to allowing workers from the new Eastern European EU members to get work permits, on the misguided notion that these highly motivated people will take jobs from French workers. Britain, Ireland, Sweden and others have taken the opposite tack and welcomed the new workers from Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia and so on, because they understand that more people working productively create more wealth and hence more jobs. The result is Britain has an unemployment rate of only 4.7 percent, even though it has absorbed more than 200,000 new workers from Eastern Europe during the last year, while France and Germany have more than 10 percent of their workforce unemployed, despite (or actually because of) their restrictive work practices."

So we can see that trying to force workers to be employed in France has in effect driven them away.

 

This has been a fun thread to read, there's a LOT of emotion in it. Just for kicks and giggles I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents.

I think Flowmotion has finally hit the nail on the head. We could sit here and argue which manufacturer is more American, or how a diverse offering of products is ultimately beneficial to the economy, but it is really not tackling the underlying issue. That issue has been hinted at numerous times already, it is, namely, world trade and its many associations. Free trade is a comparatively recent pursuit, and although I'm not certain on this, I would wager its advent was after the peak of manufacturing (That is, the heyday some people talk about in the 1950s at GM and so on). If that is the case, give or take a few decades, you have to look at the country's history prior to this.

By 1950 the country had already transitioned from an agrarian economy to a heavily industrialized one (this has also been mentioned in the thread). This was about 1870 right into the first decade of the 20th century. During this time we had a whole slew of regulations and labor issues passed. Think back to high school history with the vanderbilts, monopolies, labor strikes, Sinclair's "The Jungle," and so on. MANY of these regulations and labor laws are what make America great today. If you fastforward a hundred years we can heap on all sorts of ecological concerns. Once again, the result is a better America. NOW, what was trade back then? Who were our countries of export, etc, etc. This country grew up in a relatively isolated adolescence.

The very things that make this country a great place to work, are the things that are hurting it now that we are engaged in much more expansive world trade. Why not build things in other countries that don't have these regulations? If in China a worker and the environment is expendable, you are talking significant savings. Have you ever thought how much it costs to be environmentallly friendly? I'm going to have to look deeper (nah, this is starting to bore me), but the reason the fourth gen and trucks etc, are built in Canada or Mexico is because of NAFTA. Heck its cheaper to build Camaros in Canada where health care isn't an added cost, and in Mexico... well nothing seems to be very expensive in Mexico.

Somebody said this is growing pains, and maybe so. However, its the growing pains that would be associated with Chinese foot-binding. This problem is not going away, and somebody in Washington needs to wake up to this. America is NOT on a level playing field with China.

That was long, sorry. Just don't get me started on trade defecits prior to 1812. LOL

 

Actually the stuff in my post was all spelled out by 19th century economists

It's probably more correct to think that "everyone has a good job at the local factory" as a temporary abberation resulting from unique conditions in the 20th century.

 

I'm certainly no buff on economic history, but I think you're right on this. Interesting, about the 19th century economists, too. If this truly is a temporary or unsustainable level in manufacturing jobs/conditions compared to the world market, then where do we fall back to afterwards?

But, to get this back to China and the auto industry, I found this convenient article about the Big 3 and Democrats. It mentions the trade defecit, currency manipulation, and the theft of technologies. Specifically mentions China a time or two, as an extra bonus...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061108/...congress_autos

 

Maybe THIS is the new production site for the new car plant that will produce cheap cars coming to the USA... THIS is how the government aquires land to "sell" to corporations to build on...
Thousands riot over China land seizure: paper

The government actually terrorized and shot people, tapped phone lines, and monitored all communications in a small villiage south-west of Beijing while I was there last summer. The land was being "taken" for a new powerplant project and the local farmers who were being "removed" from the land were fighting back. They were given nothing for their land, and with no land to farm, no social security, or welfare programs, these farmers literally faced starvation or death from exposure if they didn't have family or friends to move in with elsewhere. When some of the displaced families started contacting outside media, that's when the government (black cars) came in and started the silencing. The government refused to comment on the issue in the media.

{edit - damn... I actually found an article about after a search! whaddayaknow...
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asi...ked_over_land/ }

But hey, I'll be able to buy a great little el-cheapo car made in China next year! And my conscience will be totally clear from any wrong-doing too! After all, I didn't go kill those farmers... I just supplied the money to facilitate the activity - that makes it OK.