We were also talking about the economic repercussions of china coming in. And what does George W usually do when American interests are at stake?

 

Dude, don't get this locked for political nonsense.

 

Actually, I think you would be very hard pressed to find any auto maker (domestic or import) who doesn't fight new/changing government rgulations.

No matter how well intentioned, they all add cost, usually weight, and the EPA and NHTSA has a very bad habit of adding requirements while offering no money to pay for them or even any significant technological information on how to meet them; they like to leave those small details up to the manufacturers.

 

Agreed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the President or anything else and while it's difficult to discuss issues such as are in this thread without bringing politics into it (since they have a lot to do with the situation the US faces), taking jabs at the President is unnecessary at best and has nothing to do with the subject.

 

I don’t need to justify my purchases to anyone…when someone else starts paying my bills then they can question how I choose to spend my money; until then, how I spend it is totally my own affair.

Saying GM or Ford are “more” American than, say, Toyota is missing the point and has more to do with trying to find a way to hold onto a past that doesn’t exist anymore …it’s a picture of what used to be; not what is. This isn’t fifty years ago when what was an “American” company and what was not was pretty clearly defined.

Are GM and Ford “more” American than Toyota? Yes; but that’s about the same as saying black is a bit darker color than brown.

Is GM or Ford going to do what’s best for America even if it’s bad for their bottom line? I say no, they won’t and neither will Toyota or Honda or Nissan or any other large company; they probably would have fifty years ago but not today.

This goes beyond a matter of raw dollars; companies like GM and Ford and GE and host of others USED to be American companies because they put loyalty to country at least on par with loyalty to their respective bottom lines but no longer. Oh they’ll give lip service all day long to being “American”; it makes for a great slogan at state fairs and on TV. But given a choice, they’ll do what’s best for themselves and their Net Income before doing what’s best for America.

GM and Ford “playing the game” may be "being competitive" but it's also the mark of a company doing what it takes to make money even if it's at the expense of what's best for America...when the goal of making a bigger profit conflicts with doing what's best for America, I say they’ll vote for their pocket book every time.

No company who truly cares about their employees or their alleged country gets rid of employees with many years of service just because someone in India or Mexico or China will do that person’s job for half (or less) the pay…no truly American company who places value on their employees and considers them their most “valuable resource” will do that. Likewise, no company that is truly looking out for America will send work offshore while letting American workers go on welfare and unemployment.

If GM or Ford really wanted to do what's best for America, they woudl tell China that if it wants product from GM or Ford then it will be made here in the factories we already have (rather than shutting them down) and ship it to them but we won't give them the technology they need to dig our own grave.

If the Federal Government cared, it would tell China that if it want's access to our markets they need to give us the same access to their markets and if China didn't like it then they could sit on their side of the world and pout.

 

It is the consumers who will benefit from this as there would be more choices of vehicles

 

Bob, now I think you're missing the point. If GM and Ford didn't do whatever was necessary to stay alive and competitive, it wouldn't be employing any Americans....it would be out of business....cuts are painful but necessary for the health and greater good of the company. It sucks but it's true. I'd rather see a company like GM do what it takes to survive and thrive while still contributing more to America's bottom line than ToyoHondaNissan.

 

I'm not missing the point...that actually is my point...GM and Ford and the rest of the "so called" American companies will and always will do what they decide is best for THEM (including send work offshore or building plants in other countries, importing the assemblies back to the US and putting a vehicle together and calling it an "American" car/truck.

They will do that all day long and what's best for America is a distant second.

As I said, calling GM or Ford "American" companies makes for a good sound bite and many will buy into that line but that's all it is...a line.

 

You didn't read my post.

GM and Ford are of absolutely NO use to America if they cease to exist. That is my point. You either play the game or you cease to exist. Yes, of course it's about doing what's best for the company, but an ironic side effect to that, not looking at things through nearsighted glasses, is that it does save as many American jobs as possible.

Think of it this way...when you have a ship that is overloaded, you either have to toss some weight overboard to keep moving or you do nothing and take the whole ship down....which do you choose?

At any rate, you'll forgive me if the thought of millions of cheap Chinese cars being dumped (literally, at cut-throat prices) on our soil doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.

 

You forget that these cars have to sell. You know that people will buy them. So are you saying that Americans should not have the choice to buy cheap and affordable transportation? All at the expense of propping up an inefficient automotive industry and saving a fraction of American jobs, mostly union jobs.

If people "Americans" are willing to buy cars from China, are they not the ones "killing" the Ford/GM? The fact is Ford and GM can not compete with foreign labor. And keeping them in the US will in effect kill them. GM and Ford are producing selling cars in foreign markets.They should not be forced to work in house as if they are owned by America. The times have changed and the US is not the best place to manufacture the same products that were made here in the 50s.

 

Go back and read ProudPony's posts.

Ponder how our country will survive if all of our industrial base is lost and our whole economy depends on "capital" jobs or service jobs. How will we defend ourselves when our military is forced to buy all of its hardware from foreign entities?

If WW2 were to happen in such a situation, what companies here would be able to stop building widgits and start building planes, tanks, missiles, etc.?

 

I never said we should abandon all of the industry in the US. At the same time though some things become easier to make else where. Your gloom and doom picture is quite unfounded. Trade is a very good thing and not bad like you would have us believe. The fact is industry has been on the decline as an employer all across the globe.

"Since 2000, China has lost 4.5 million manufacturing jobs compared to the loss of 3.1 million in the U.S. Nine of the top 10 manufacturing countries, who produce 75 percent of the world's manufacturing output (the U.S., Japan, Germany, China, Britain, France, Italy, Korea, Canada, and Mexico), have lost manufacturing jobs, Italy being the exception. Because of technological progress, manufacturing output has risen while manufacturing employment has fallen." from: Foreign Trade Angst, by Walter Williams October 18, 2006

Every country has to look at the benefits of technologies and emerging markets and deal with them as a change for the better. What you are seeing is progress. Trying to keep an old inefficient system in place is just bad business.

The US auto industry long ago became a stagnate industry. They lost their market share to the Japanese because they were not efficient or flexible. Japanese factory's including those in the US far outclass the Ford/GM models. They are more flexible and efficient. Ford and GM will die out because of their bad business practices and it is not the patriotic duty of Americans to save their butts.

 

Just a little reminder...

http://landwind.bootnetworks.com/

 

WWII will never happen again. Once again because times have changed. Just like the rest of the wars from long ago they will not be repeted. We have graduated to a new level be it better or worse. Also the US was not the industrial powerhouse it was in 1945 in 1940. There was a need to manufacture large amounts of equipment in WWII and the US meet that need.

In todays world there is no need to manufacture equipment on large scales like WWII. And just as a hypothetical I think the US could become a manufacturing giant again if the need arose. Although I do not think that Americans would jump on board to join the fight on the home front like they did in WWII. Once again time has gone by and so has how Americans think and believe.

 

The F150 did not look so much better than the Landwind IMO.