That's a little too retro, don't you think? It would confuse folks quite a bit more than it would benefit them.

 

These are the value leaders they don't count .

 

Let the truth be told!

 

Come on now. The powers that be at GM certainly know who Red Planet is. The Chevrolet company line is currently, "SS is our top dawg performance package across the board".

Scott has long said his #1 priorty is bringing back "CAMARO" without regards to whichever is the top dawg "SS" or "Z/28". Do you think its in his (or our) best intrest to squabble over the fact of which is better "SS" or "Z/28"?

That is precisely why he wants the debate to stop.

Let's just agree that we ALL want Camaro back! We ALL want there to be a high performance option with a Mustang Cobra slaying V8, RWD and a six-speed.

Who cares what they call it... as long as its a CAMARO.

 

It's obvious that we care. 124 posts in 4 days. Half of them describing "how much" and "why" we care. And this all during a period that we're trying very hard to put the issue on "hiatus".

The only advise I can give to GM is, respect the passion and don't screw the pooch..........

 

They better bring the Z28 back to where it should be and start learning to consider a cars history before putting names unlike what they've done before. RP might be a nice guy that definetly seems cool and is all for the Camaro, but when this subject comes up, I and alot of others, feel he is COMPLETELY wrong and needs to listen a little better here. Listening is gonna be a key in the 5th Gen because it wasn't used much in the 4th no matter how much they try and say it was, lets see if they mess it all up again by trying to use almost the same wrong formula.

 

I'm outta this one.

When an issue degenerates into a bunch of emotional nonsense, it's time for the engineers to head for the hills.

 

Some people care, some don't. The 1's that don't lose or will lose eventually because of less effort or not caring about important issues no matter how little on a car like the Camaro or any enthusiast car are. For any product to work right the manufacturer has to care about every aspect of that particular product and take what thier customers really think and feel into consideration. The company that does will be the winner. Seems that if you look at it my way, cars that have been made with that in mind practically always did great.

If they want the SS to be the top car it better be the "regular" top car with all the options. The Z28 should take the 1LE's place with its name recognition and some added Z28 flash, as they always had. I bet they'd sell more Z28s in the 1LEs' spot than they did 1LEs. A popular, all-out car, that sells in good numbers and alot better than limited numbers sounds good to me. And every1 could be happy that way. My vote goes to ther 1LE/Z06 or whatever Z28 for the 5th Gen.

 

I know all about that bro - I'm feeling your pains there!
All of my days at work are tough lately. We had a "suprise" layoff a week and a half ago, and now all the work from the folks let go is trickling down to guys like me. I had 4-peoples' jobs to do before this layoff, now I've got 6!

The point was not to model the stripper car as a great sales unit.
The point was to illustrate that super-special, heavily-hyped, radically different cars can bring a lot of energy to a model lineup. The fact that the cars are pretty bare yet brought almost 3-times the price of a base car does stand out too. But whether you think the 93, 95, or especially the 2000 R models brought any spectacular performance or value to the game is irrelevant in this conversation - the point is to look at the HYPE they brought to Ford and to the Mustang. So they only made @300 units of the 2000 R, YOU, and I, and everyone else on this board know alot about them, don't we? They made the cover of every rag, they were discussed on TV shows, shown at car shows everywhere, etc. (FWIW, I too think the 2000 R model was way short of being worth the money and was overrated. The '03 shames it for $20k less.) I think if you read my original post, you'll see that was where I was going with that example, and I still think it is very appropriate in the discussion of how GM brings back the Camaro. IMO, GM needs to do a "special" Camaro (along those lines) from time to time to keep that hype in the air. Again, I never said it had to be called Z/28 either.

My stab at the Vette and Viper were along the lines of them both being 2-seaters, limited engine choices, limited tranny choices, limited practicality, and with very high prices. I certainly agree that both come with oodles of pasche features (and for $55k-$70k most should!), but how many of those amenities are actually user-selected options? Very few. They are pre-packaged by the manufacturer to maximize cost savings and assembly efficiencies. You yourself pointed out that "every new Viper is a convertible" - great for Dodge, now there are no hard tops to tool or complicate the assembly line with. Standard features include in-dash 6-disc unit, PW, PD, PM, adj pedals, etc - that's all great for the average car/buyer and keeps the line less complicated, but what about the occasional guy that wants a stripper to turn into a pure racer? He doesn't want or need all those things. They add weight and do nothing for performance. He may not bicker about the price, maybe even paying the same or more than a regular Viper, but he doesn't want to have to strip all that stuff out of the car or store it somewhere.

Again, maybe the viper is not such a good example, because the car itself is intended to be an image builder for the company (Dodge). The Camaro model should be a volume unit and what I proposed was a special unit to be an image builder for the MODEL, more so than the company. A "stripped" Viper is kind of extreme, but a semi stripped-down, all-business, high-performance Camaro still would excite me personally.

All I can say here is you'll never know 'til you try. Ford had no guarantee that the Cobra, Cobra R, Lightning, or SVT Focus would sell, especially with Saleen, Rousch, and others already in the market with a name for themselves, but they tried it and it seems to be working out pretty well. SVT is one of the few profitable "specialty" areas inside of Ford right now, and they are doing great. We all know what kind of press the '03 Cobra got for the last 24 months, and that kind of hype certainly hasn't shunned people from the Ford dealers' lots lately. Provided the pricing was not absurd, I personally doubt that the special Camaros would sit and rot on lots if the car was redesigned with the improvements we have all identified to the body, interior, suspension, etc. - people would be wanting them again. Remember, we are dealing with a "successful" redesigned F5 at this point, not the F4.

One last thought...
The Z/28 was not around full time. It has come and gone through the years, much as the Mach 1 and GT did with the Mustang. Maybe, just maybe, the Z/28 should not be around full time for the future either. Maybe it pops in for a limited run every 2 or 3 years, helping to generate "OOOhs" and "AAAhs" during reskins or freshenings and at NAIAS-type shows. As a collector, I know for fact that limited runs of desireable units do wonders for valuation and desireability of ponycars (ref SVO's, turbo GTs, '84 GT 350s, '93 Cobras, Laser red verts, Bullitts, King Cobras and the like). That could make the enthusiast happy, the collectors happy, the racer-guy happy, and the car/manufacturer would both benefit from providing what some folks want and having the opportunity to create hype every so often for the car.

Regardless, we have to get out of this funk that is bogging us all down here. Nobody wants to waste a ton of money on anything, but the only sure-fire way to find out what's gonna work it to try...

Z28Wilson, thanks for the good conversation. I actually feel like my position was challenged and debated without it being purely a Z/28 vs. SS issue!

 

I want the Camaro back just as much as anyone here. But I want it done the right way not a half assed job. There is a lot of history with the Camaro line and the Z28 was always considered the top dog until the 4th gen came along. IMO the only reason there was an SS 4th-gen was because of the popularity of the 94-96 Impala SS. It was a gimick for Chevrolet to charge an extra $4500 over the base price of a Z28.

There is a lot of history behind the SS name also. Look back at all of them and you will see that it is just a "sporty" trim package with no performance value. I don't want to here "what about the SS 396 camaro , SS 454 Chevelle ect." The 396 and 454 were options on top of the base SS package ( I'm 95% sure you could get these motors in the base cars). The Z28 had a specific motor, suspension, and sometimes wheels included in the package (in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th gen at least). The SS's (Impala, Monte Carlo, Silverado) available now are worthy of the name. Are they serious performance vehicles? I think we can all agree they are not. So why should the performance flagship of the Camaro line be stuck with the SS name?

 

Bro...

I think that you started it when you made 1LE standard on Berlinetta and optional on Z/28.

 

Nah, I changed that.

I've got the spreadsheet done, BTW.

Anyhoo, I'm tired of the p*ss*ng contest. There's no reason involved anymore.

 

Not to add any fuel to fire... however, the top dawg CAMARO's from 67-69 were probably actually the 427 Yenkos (and similar cars by Dana, and Baldwin, etc.).

Most 427 Yenko Camaros began life as an SS 396.

As a first gen Camaro fan I am completely content with saying the top dawg street Camaro was the SS 396, while the top racing Camaro was the Z/28. (Personally, I'd like one of each, both in RS trim and make the SS a convertible)

 

Indeed.

My point with Viper is that if Viper enthusiasts were clamoring for a no-fluff car there would be a hardtop version available with no amenities. But there isn't. I find that to be interesting.

Do you have sales figures for Mustang before and after the much-hyped 2000 R came out? It'd be interesting to see if there really was some kind of "trickle down" effect for the entire Mustang line or, if my hunch is correct, people just said "Wow that's kinda cool, but it doesn't make me want a Mustang GT any more or less."

See, if cold-hard facts dictate that a "Real" Z/28 would boost sales of the entire Camaro line, then great. Now we have something to chew on. But if perceived image is all we're going to do these cars for, with sales of this Z/28 a very, very slim slice of the whole pie, I think it's logical to ask from a business standpoint: why bother?

 

Didn't the Viper even entertain the idea with a limited run of GTS hardtops a while back? Kinda limited options? Blue with white LeMans stripes? Even a $65,000 pure performance car saw fit to offer a "limited edition", up-priced version of it's model.

I guess I have a picture in my head in which we already have an F5 that is selling well and has covered the basics. The limited-run car (z/28 or not) was just an idea thrown out to help keep interest and hype around the car as it ages and changes. If there is no successful F5 given at that point - then you are right, there is no need.

I think you have to agree though, that hype is needed to keep any car on peoples minds and rag covers, and that can't possibly hurt. It just depends on how the company wants to do it (if they want to do it at all )