.........the Z/28 might cost more.....be limited in it's production numbers (?).......and not have certian luxury items to help to offset some of the cost difference between it and the SS models. Just like the difference between an optioned out C5 coupe and the Z06.

So yes, I think some of us would gladly pay more for a real Z/28...I personally don't think the differnece would be more than $5k though.......

Volume Camaros can be base models and LT's....simple.

The advertising for the Z/28 alone would give GM something to ignite the testosterone of a whole new generation like no other product they've ever made....not even the Corvette has this appeal (too un-achievable for the masses)....with images of first & second gen road racers to drive home the re-born mission of world beating performance.

The SS could then be pitted against all other comers....hopefully extolling the quality, value and performance of the Camaro.

It's all about re-gaining the respect and market position with a clear mission of all the models.

 

If the Camaro has four different models like weve been saying it will be a volume car. The Z28 will just be produced less than say the SS because it wouldn't be for everyone. I understand the fact that option make car companies money but that isn't the case with the Cobra. All Cobras come the same way your only choice is hardtop or convertable. Iam not sure but aren't the production figures for the Vette the same or better than Camaro's final years? Also if the Z28/SS share most of their components minus brakes/suspension wouldn't that bring the production numbers up for the V8 car? I can't see how making a specific car (Z28) for the enthusiast going to be so difficult. It seems that the SS guys want this mega powered V8 available in only the SS. Wouldn't this idea be the least cost effective, especially when even the SS is not going to be the model with the biggest production? What Iam asking for are add-ons to enhance the performance of an already good car: Koni's, Recaros, Brembos, ect. Yes I am willing to pay the price. If Nissan, VW, and Subaru can have stuff like this available and not break the bank why can't Chevrolet do that. Geez even the Neon had Koni's available and with the ACR package it still cost less than 14K. Also I never said I wanted cloth seats only if Iam gonna pay over 30k for a car it better have leather. Just like the Z06.

 

K, sort out your own quotes here, and I'll run down the list...


".......the 1LE becomes a comprehensive performance package that includes big wheels, good tires, big brakes, suspension, seats ...the whole nine yards...for afew extra thou. But it's only available on a six speed coupe. AND.........instead of calling it the 1LE we'll......just for me.....call it Z/28.

The "low line" Z/28 that you've previously described ...simply becomes a base V8 Camaro."

GM will not discard the marketing power of the Z28 name just to make a SMALL number of Z28 purists happy. GM is in the business of selling cars - lots of them.


"Z28: 400 hp six spd manual only, good seats (recaro), good shifter, some lightweight Z28 specific wheels, a 1LE type adjustable suspension, brembo brakes and hud.

SS: All of the above except for the supension/brakes (this would offset the price of the two models)."

Won't happen. As I have stated about 100 times here, the guy who buys the most expensive car deserves the best performance the line can offer. Furthermore, GM has ZERO vested interest in catering to the people who only want a manual (I'm one of them, BTW...) and alienating the rest of the market. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Corvettes are a different matter entirely. GM could paint them all orange with purple stripes and giant pink flowers down the side, charge $5,000 more for it and they'd SELL EVERY ONE THEY MAKE.

I'd also bet dollars to doughnuts that the next Z28 WILL NOT get a HUD standard. The option will be reserved for more expensive cars and probably be included in a package.


"IMO they should be priced about the same. Just remember no one here ever expected the Z28 to cost under 30K. If it's done right I'd even pay 40K for a Z28. Any more than that and I'll take my check book to the BMW dealership and get an M3."

1) Camaro WILL NOT push the Corvette for price OR performance. It isn't going to happen. GM makes money hand over fist on Corvette, it's the corporate flagship, and it has a status and following that Camaro cannot match - sorry, but it's true. I love Camaros for what they are, but they are not Corvettes.

2) In current dollars, you're about the only guy on the planet that will pay $40,000 for a Z28.

3) Skip the BMW. The CTS pounds it straight into the sand. Nicer, faster, higher quality, better handling car. Make sure that if you do take your checkbook to the dealership, you remember exactly where it is, because you're going to spend quite a while there over the next few years.


"Like PacerX has been saying, people want options. The more the merrier. And guess what? Companies love selling cars with options. Makes them a ton of money. That's a win-win for everyone there. So why am I bothering to offer a 6-speed only, hardtop only, manual and cloth seat only model in a line that is supposed to sell in volumes? Mustang Cobra is the fastest of the Mustangs...and yes, it still can be had with leather, power everything and with a convertible roof."

WE HAVE A WINNER!


"The Z28 will just be produced less than say the SS because it wouldn't be for everyone."

Again (for the 101st time...) GM has ZERO interest in limiting a market to make a TINY segment of the market happy. They need to sell 100,000 of these things.


"I understand the fact that option make car companies money but that isn't the case with the Cobra. All Cobras come the same way your only choice is hardtop or convertable."

It most certainly IS the case with the Cobra. Cobras are HIGH CONTENT cars. Leather, etc... Believe me when I tell you, a large chunk of that $33,000-$35,000 sticker is fluff (leather, big stereo, etc...).


"Wouldn't this idea be the least cost effective, especially when even the SS is not going to be the model with the biggest production?"

No, and here's why:
People will pay $8,000 more for an SS - and they did. Even the Z28 purists here balk at a $33,000 car and say it is too expensive. You may not, but the mantra on this board has been, and continues to be, affordable RWD V8.

If it proves anything at all, it proves that the average Z28 buyer DOES NOT WANT a $33,000 car. They want a $26,000 car. They can HAVE a terrific performing $26,000 car, but they cannot dictate certain conditions that artifically curtails GM's ability to sell a higher-profit, better equipped car - especially since they don't want to pay for it.

 

Why do the "I want a low-volume Z28" keep comparing it to a Z06?

Z06 accounts for over 25% of Corvette production ...

Hardly low-volume.

I also wouldn't call it a stripper by any means. Do stripper cars have leather seats and H.U.D.'s?

 

What a thread! Man-o-man. I feel like I just watched a presidential debate lasting 4 days...

First thing I wanted to say is... wouldn't Scott be proud?
He asked us all to stop the quibbling about the SS / Z/28 thing last week, so we do a marathon on it this week.

Now here's my .02 on the whole thread...
1) The base car MUST be a great, good for everything, totally liveable car that any 18y/o girl would want to drive and be seen in - or forget the rest of the story RIGHT NOW - capiche? It still must scream "Camaro" when you look at it - retro or futuristic. This car is where the volume comes from and that is irrefutable. Other intelligent guys have posted this same concept with figures to back it up - and YES, the guys will buy it too.
Also, who gives a red-rats-azz what powers it?!?! Historically speaking, EVERY ponycar in history has sold more units with the puniest corporate engine powering them than their middle-weight or heavy-weight hitters. The original '64.5-'66 Mustangs sold over 60% with 170 or 200 ci I-6 engines and 3-spd floor sticks. The Mustang II's only offered 4's and 6's in '74 and it sold 400K units - more than all it's competitors... COMBINED! I don't know much about Camaros production figures, but I sure know I saw alot more 4's than V8's back in the '80s, and today I still see more V6's than V8's. A great triple would be any reliable and economical powerplant... the Grand Slam would be a powerplant that offers the tuner (ricer if you want) crowd a good base to build from via NO2, turbos, S/C's or other adders.

2)There should definitely be a middle-ground car of some type/form that brings more to the party than the econobox unit, but doesn't encroach on the top-dog(s) performance-wise in any way. I particularly like the base V8 approach. With a base V8, you will attract many more buyers that want the improved power, but not the cop-magnet tire-squealer V8. IMHO, this is EXACTLY the kind of car missing from the F4 lineup, and sales showed it too. This is also the car where the maker begins to smack-down some serious profits because this unit will make almost all the bells and whistles available - option it to the hilt, suit yourself kind of approach. BUT, some options are NOT available on this unit like the 1LE, M6, 17"(or 18") wheels, etc. This is an effort to keep the performers exclusive in external appearance and actual performance.

3)The "elevated performer"... well what can I say here. GM has done a great job of being the fastest ponycar around for a decade. I think they know how to make the car go fast and look good. I think this unit should be discernable from the "other" Camaros via bodywork, i.e. hood scoops, rear spoilers, side spats, rims, graphics, etc. No gaudy, disco-like stuff, but well designed, elegant yet sporty and functional peices - somewhat low-keyed but definitely there... like the front air dams, hood treatments, and graphics on the late F3 IROC cars for example. Even at 100 yards away, there was no mistaking an IROC for a Berlinetta back in the mid '80s. People will PAY GOOD MONEY to stick out in a crowd or not have their car look like every other one on the road. (IMHO, this car also needs to wear SS badging - it is common, popular, and generically "GM", so it belongs here on this unit.)

4)The specialty car... This MUST also be addressed. I think GM could gain significantly by catering to the purist again, instead of ramming the limited choices down their throat, and with high volumes of base and upscaled Camaros now bringing in tidy profits, they have no reason to deny the purists their "profit-sharing" in the form of specialty cars. This is where I see the Z/28 finding a home. It should have nothing but go-fast goodies available. I am not going to get into engine specs - honestly, it really doesn't matter if it has exhaust and a lid or not - but it BETTER BE FASTER AND BETTER HANDLING THAN THE "elevated performer". I think these units should only offer a bare-bones list of options that should all be functionally (not luxury) oriented. Stock is an M6, A5 is cost-added option. 1LE is standard. 17" wheels standard, 18's optional. No power seats, no leather, no OnStar, no HUD, etc.
It is also MY OPINION that this car should be somewhat limited in production, and should NOT be viewed as a highly profitable unit. It should be a "gift" to the Camaro-loyal crowd that GM can use two-fold... it should be an "image-builder" garnering attention and drawing crowds at cruise-ins, dragways, auto-X's, and other performance gatherings. It would also keep the loyalists happy and show GM's committment to their wants and desires.
By doing a limited run (like 5k-10k per annum), GM could anticipate costs based on volume, and deliver the cars with MSRP either at or just above break-even. Sure they are in business to make money, and they will on every single one of the other cars sold. They wont LOSE money on these either, just break-even. Think of it as profit sharing... to me, every car-buyer is a shareholder in the company too just in another way... they voted their shares with their wallet, not a proxy card.

Put this scenario into perspective with the Mustang...
Base car - Mustang V6 - Camaro V6 (who cares what engine or the HP), these folks don't race.
Middle-ground - Mustang (V6 Pony edition) - Camaro Berlinetta or RS (again, who really cares what engine, honestly?)
Elevated Performer - Mustang GT - Camaro SS (option them 'til you are broke if you want, let's see all V8's here.)
Specialty Cars - Mustang Bullitt, Mach 1, GT350 - Camaro Z/28 (I wish they could revive the IROC )

One last thing... I think y'all are all wrong by trying to pit any stock Camaro (now or future) against the Cobra. Ford is trying hard to separate the Cobra from the standard Mustang line. Ford is after a different market with that car. In fact, Ford has blatantly claimed they are shooting for the base, manual Vette with the Cobra - I have posted many articles here demonstrating this. You don't see any Mustang badging or running horses outside a Cobra. The rear bumper cover says "COBRA", not Mustang. YES, it is Mustang based, and most items are swappable (is that a real word?) to a stock Mustang, but honestly, look at the advertising and target market for the Cobra... it isn't the G35, RX8, Accord crowd like the Mustang is gunning for.

If GM decides to do a *****-out killer car based on the F5, I think that'd be great, but I also think they should market the car differently as Ford has done with the Cobra and let the common Camaro go for the jugular in sales. Look at it this way, the Cobra could die tomorrow, and the Mustang will still be there, going strong because the whole car line is not dependent on the success of the cobra's engine, tranny, and bodywork (much like the F4's were with the LS1-only option).

Let me try to say this again in different words...
If the less-profitable, specialty, top-end, "exotic" car can't support itself, it's easier to 86 and cull out than the main car whose very foundation and drivetrain were amortized and costed to justify the entire model's existance. I think this is where the recent Z/28 price-battle between Z284ever and PacerX has become evident. You guys are trying to justify an exotic car based on "production" accounting principles. Since everyone knows that "puny"-engined econo-cars sell better, base the model's economics on the units that we KNOW will sell in volumes - the V6 and base V8 cars, then do the specialty cars for the enthusiasts separately... IT DOES WORK, it's different, and bean-counters don't like it because it makes it hard on them to put every little thing in it's stereotypical cubbyhole, but it works.

Let me throw a little additional fertilizer in this weed patch...
Y'all recall the Cobra R models? No radio, no carpet, no rear seat?
Sold out before production began.
Ever hear of the Mustang "bodies in white" program?
The beginning of a race car delivered to you for @$3000 - from Ford. Build your own car.
Now THAT is getting radical about giving the customer what they want. And FWIW, the stripped down, gutted out, manual windows, all in red, no radio 2000 Cobra R's sold for $55k or more each, and are bringing that or more today. So don't try to tell me that a specialty car with little or no options won't sell. If it is the limited edition, performance car that a guy wants, it WILL sell.

Thanks to those taking the time to read my mini-novel - hope it made some sense and opened a little different perspective for you.

Proud

PS - guionM - yes, I agree with the title to your thread. Too many cooks in the kitchen can spoil the meal. They all had the best intentions, but...

 

I think, when all is said and done.....this is what it comes down to. But, I've never, never, never once said I'm looking for a $26,000 5th gen Z/28. As far as I can see.....everyone on this thread is willing to pay more....substantially more... for a properly executed Z/28.


If I'm getting what your saying...it's this: The Z/28 name has marketing equity for Camaro. Marketing equity that Chevy intends to use (**** away?)....for an unfocused entry level car which doesn't necessarilly follow the Z/28 "formula".....eventhough, there are a bunch of people willing to PAY MORE for an undiluted REAL Z/28.

But if Chevy builds a REAL Z/28......they are afraid that word of it's performance focus wiil spread like wildfire and will so deflate the SS's percieved performance image that they won't find enough sucke...er....I mean buyers, to cough up an extra $8-$10 grand for it.

Am I on target....or have I missed something?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the new Camaro Supercar (call it "SS", "Z28" or "Whatever" ), when fully optioned out with all the bells and whistles, costs in upwards of $40,000.

That would actually be in line with inflation.

The sticker on my 95 Z28 was about $23,000. It was fully loaded with every option available in 1995, with the exception of the polished rims. (They were too hokey for me and not worth the extra $1300, IMO.)

Using 5% annual inflation (about average), over 10 years that equates to roughly a 63% increase in price. Thusly my fully loaded 95 Z28 in 2005 dollars would sticker at about $37,500. Extend that out to 2007 (the 40th Anniversary of the Camaro ) and that works out to $41,300.

I don't want some cheaply made, thrown together POS just to get the price under $30K. I want a state-of-the-art musclecar that screams C-A-M-A-R-O!

And I'll pay whatever it takes to get one.

 

Come to think of it, $23k is what I paid for it. The sticker was about $28k.

Readjusting that would mean $46k (2005) and $50k (2007).

 

Please, for the love of God, do not bring back the Berlinetta. Im begging, as a die hard 3rd gen guy, for that name to never be used on anything, ever again.

 

Agreed!

 

Yes they come the same way basically. They come loaded. That's the point my friend! Listen, if Camaro had these two choices...*****-out performance car with little other content or "luxury contented" V8 car with decreased performance...what are most people going to do? Stand on a Chevy lot scratching their heads wondering why they can't get the best of both worlds. Doesn't matter what the prices are of these cars. Then, they walk across the street to the Ford dealer, buy their fully equipped 400+ HP Cobra and call it a day.

C'mon how many did they build, 300 copies? Not a very legit example. If you want GM to build 300 Z28's a year, great. I can't think of a better way than to promote Camaro by sticking its most recognized badge on a whopping 300 copies a year. (sarcasm)

You mean if it's an extremely overpriced, extremely impractical, uncomfortable, and extremely low production car it would sell? I don't give Ford a lot of praise for the "almighty" R...if anything the 2003 Cobra proved there's a lot of rich suckers out there. Again, the "R" formula worked just fine at a whopping 300 copies, at a time when Mustangs were pretty much dog slow after the '99 Cobra fiasco. It's rediculous to apply the same logic to a car you're looking to sell 20,000 units of.

 

Interesting thread...I've tended to be quiet except for throwing in my "base car V8" mantra that pisses people off here and there...I can't throw that in enough

So here's MY opinion...bear with me. I think I like a lot of what I see, with a few mods...

1) Base coupe (call it RS for fun maybe???)

Price range: $21,995 - $24,995
Engines: 230hp (or close) 3.9 V6, 285hp 5.3 V8
Standard: Nice 16" alloys, PW, PL, cruise, tilt, CD stereo better than Monsoon was...
Options: Ordinary stuff...t-tops, leather, Automatic, 5.3...but thats it!!! Nothing else...keep the price in line...

This makes it possible to get our $22,000 base car with our $1,000 V8...23k out the door for a base car, with PW and PL...or $24k with t-tops. This, gentlemen, is MY new Camaro...give me PW, PL, V8, t-tops, and call it a day...

2) Berlinetta (I like it!!!)
Price range: $24,995-27,995
Engines: Same as RS
Standard: Everything standard and optional from the RS except t-tops...not everyone wants them...PLUS standard On-Star, HUD
Options: Nav system, t-tops, 5.3 V8, chrome wheels, etc.

So from a base of $25k, we add 1,000 for t-tops, 700 for HUD/On-star, and $1,000 for the V8...we have a fully equipped, $28,000 luxury GT that looks like the base car, save for some classy looking Berlinetta logos...same wheels, (available chrome), same overall body...

3) Z28
Price Range: $25,995 - $28-995
Engines: Larger 6.0 engine, 325hp only
Standard: Same base stuff as the RS, nothing added to interior content. BUT, add handling package, 17" painted wheels, different taillights, different side trim, different grille insert...MAKE IT LOOK DIFFERENT THAN THE BASE CAR!!!!!!!!!!!! So your $4,000 addition to the base car's base price pays for the 6.0, heavier duty suspension, a few trim bits that cost no more to make, and some heavier spring rates and bars that ALSO do not cost much more to make...
Options: T-tops, chrome wheels, leather, HUD, 1LE package. No nav, no leather. Plenty of other goodies though...notice how it is possible to make a Z28 for around $1,000 more than a Berlinetta?? It SHOULD be possible. But the proposed $26,000 Z28 everyone seems to like should be no more than a base car...maybe it should be $1,000 more for this idea of a Z. No problem here. MAYBE I'd buy this one

4) SS
Price Range: $29,995-$36,995
Engines: 6.0 350hp base, 400hp 6.0 available, or some LSx derivative
Standards: All the Z28 goodies plus a ram air hood, plus standard 17" chrome wheels. Z28 suspension. Make 1LE optional. Standard leather, HUD and on board computer, On-Star, and xenon headlamps.
Available: What isn't? T-tops, available engine, 1LE, nav system, on board computer, CD changer, even better stereo, EVERYTHING. So RP doesn't complain as much about certifying 2 unique powertrains for the SS, the only difference between the SS and the Z28 is the RA hood and the exhaust to get the extra 25hp...

So shoot through it all you want, guys But I made a full, realistic lineup with one V6 and 3 V8s...same as Ford does. I also made 4 cars that relate to 4 different buyers. You get the base car for girls or those guys who want the cheap V8 and t's. You get the luxury model for a good value over base that will work against Accord and Solara. For a grand more or so, you get a Z28 with the go fast goodies and cloth seats in a lighter package to appeal to the hot rod guys.

Then you have the SS, on top where it should be, with all the go fast goodies and luxury you could want. $37k for a totally loaded car should top it out. Gentlemen, I feel like I have a winner

Feel free to chop through it though I am at work on lunch break...rushing to do this

 

As we were saying earlier in the thread, I think a "Berlinetta type" car is a key cog in the success of a 5th gen Camaro.

I personally have no problem whatsoever with the name Berlinetta...in fact I think it's pretty cool. It makes me think of the fast, luxurious, early sixties Ferraris that GM ripped the name off from.

Whatever you call it.....it needs to happen.

 

Who is everyone? Not me. Not jg95z28. Not steves. Not Doug Harden.

We all want a REAL Z/28....and are willing to pay for it.

Maybe ProudPony's idea is worth looking at. What if SS really became a real SS again, in that you could option it in a multitude of ways. Let it come in at a mid price...include powertrain, some suspension and trim and make it available with every option. As PP said....."option it until you go broke". You don't think dealers would mostly stock $40,000 SS's?

But a mid-$20K SS version would still be available to cover that segment.

This would leave the Z/28 free to fulfill it's mission.....and maybe have some brand equity left in it for a 6th gen Camaro Z/28.

 

PLEASE DON"T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.

I never said the Z/28 should be done like the Cobra R model - in fact I said nothing even close to that. My only point with the R model is that SOME PEOPLE WANT THE PERFORMANCE WITHOUT THE FRILLS AND LUXURY CRAP - PERIOD - no reference to any Camaro or badging. There ARE people who will pay for it too. Don't fool yourselves. To say that the most expensive car (due to infinite luxury appointments) also has to be the fastest is short-sighted, and has already been proven wrong.


The Vette does, doesn't it?
Viper anyone?
Hmmm, shall I start listing all the 2-seater performance cars that cost $50k or more and somehow just keep selling?

AGAIN - DON"T PUT YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I never said I wanted to see 20,000 units of the all-out ball-busting killer model (Cobra OR Camaro version). Just the opposite - I even had in my post 5k-10k per year, and likened the production unit and level to the Bullitt and Mach 1 programs. These cars (while great performers) are attention-getters... excitement-makers... enthusiast-pacifiers.
Where did you get 20k units from my post?!?!

I would like to politely invite you to reread my post closely.
I think you'll see that we probably agree more than you think. Look into the details.