Entertaining? Heck they built them and are selling them. I've seen more Viper coupes lately than convertibles.

 

You mean something like this?

http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=7&y=2...acer/28v2.html

 

Can you post it?

 

I'm talking about the new (2nd Gen) Viper. I know the original style Viper had hardtops abound.

 

Rumor has it that a GTS coupe is in the works.

 

Competition Viper

It is being sold, but it's for competition only. It's not street legal.

 

Take this concept and fast forward it 25 years.

http://www.geocities.com/nasty80z28/79b-3.html


I remember midnight blue with a camel interior was a very stylish color combo.

 

You know, if I'm not mistaken, this is exactly what Scott's job regarding Camaro is. Relaying feedback and serving as a link between the owners & potential buyers, and the people responsible for marketing Camaro.

I think that spreadsheet will be of very high intrest to him.

 

Let's see the spread sheet.

 

[


(QUOTE)
As much as I admire the idea, it doesn't work - and it's been proven not to work. Camaro can no longer afford to built to only appeal to limited market segments. 100,000 cars need to be built and sold - and that means the appeal has to broaden at every level. What I've tried to do is allow a Z28 buyer to pick and choose the performance options that are most important - big powerful V8, manual or automatic transmission, multiple wheel and tire combinations, a 1LE handling package, etc... and keep the costs down.

I've done this in the most reasonable manner I think I can, especially in light of the fact that there is a schizophrenia involved with Z28 fans...

Z28 Guys: "It's gotta be hella fast, and cheap"

GM: "Well, we can do that, but there are going to be some sacrifices in content because of cost, and I still need a higher line car then to make money on options and keep the car line alive."

Z28 Guys: "Well, as long as the Z28 is the fastest and best handling."

GM: "I can't do that. The guy who shells out $9,000 more for his SS is entitled to get some performance improvement for it, and if he doesn't get it no one is going to buy it so I end up killing off my own market."

Z28 Guys: "Z28 has still gotta be the fastest."

GM: "Look, I have to make money, and making money means that I need to be able to sell higher content vehicles. The buyers of higher content vehicles not only expect amenities, but they expect better performance too. If you want a hella-fast, great handling car for not too much money I can build you one, BUT I'm not going to tell somebody who is willing to shell out a LOT more money he can't have a faster and better handling car."

Z28 Guys: "Well, how about a really rare, REALLY ARCANE, option callout that nobody but us insiders and Camaro purists know about - and we get it for dirt cheap - but the guys who shell out a LOT more money for a car can't have it."

GM: "Somebody explain to me slowly why I have any interest whatsoever in limiting my own market, and my profits at the same time."


Honestly, I think the core of the issue here is no longer a rational argument - and I say this with all respect:

You can't have it both ways. Either you are going to accept that a higher-line car - WHATEVER it is called - is going to be required to be a better performer BECAUSE IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE and then strive to make the lower line, still V8 powered, less expensive car the best it can be or you're not. [/B][/QUOTE]





THANK YOU, PACER X.....A point I've been trying to make all along.....(for the most part)

Guys and Gals...I've been away for over a week and have just started reading this thread....at a late hour.......up to page 5......so I'm posting this without reading the next 5 pages.

a couple of thoughts.

I happen to know that PacerX is in the auto industry. He has insights that like it or not, some of you do not. That last sentence is NOT meant as a put-down to those of you who are not....but the industry is more complicated than you might probably ever imagine. When I hear "well, it will only add a couple of dollars to the car" I just roll my eyes. EVERY manufacturer agonizes over a few cents a car. I know that may sound preposterous...but it is the truth. This is a very capital intense industry...and one of the most competitive industries there is...... My point...you might do well to take what he says and think it over. He does NOT work for GM.......so he has the objectivity of seeing a car program from a very interesting perspective...yet he does not have the prejudice, in my opinion that some of us (that means me) have.

One thing I still haven't seen anyone address is the fact that this is the 21st century. What applied in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s is probably not valid in many ways for one of many reasons...the number one reason is the makeup of the market. No one knew what a Sport Utility was in the 60s...or the 70s for that matter.....they came into vogue in the 90s.....big time....and it doesn't seem like that market is EVER gonna stop growing....even with gas prices rising, the public is still buying them. That's because they want them....not because someone is holding a loaded gun to their heads. Will that market finally peak and drop off? Most likely....the question is when...and the BIGGER question is "what's next?" The manufacturer that makes the call right will win.....the manufacturer that misses the call will not be in business....it's that simple. (by 'what's next', I mean the "super segment"....of a few million units sold annually....not a segment of 350,000 units annually. The bottom line is that the consumer has a myriad of automotive choices today.....and I don't see the choices coming down in number...they will continue to increase which puts even more pressure on every manufacturer.
I mentioned in a post a while back that for those who think the 4th gen was a miserable failure that perhaps they ought to do the math..........the 4th gen had the same penetration percentage in the total market as the 1st gens did.....and just about the same as the 3rd gens. The 2nd gen was the most sucessful in terms of overall production numbers...and total percentage to the overall market. I'm NOT saying the 4th gen was without faults. But I DO know this: there was and continues to be a prejudice toward the 4th gen. I'm always amazed...and it happened a lot....when I'd hear someone bash the 4th gen...esp Z28 or SS....yet after I handed the keys to them....and they drove the car....really drove the car and experienced it....they were amazed....and many went on to buy one or more of 'em.

I think one thing that was detrimental to the 4th gen was the lack of styling change. Yup.....I can take the blame for part of that because I...along with others....could not get the resources needed to make more changes.....and the resources we received went toward performance. ( I also understand why the resources were not made available...I don't like it, but from an inside perspective, I understand......it all comes down to money....GM and Ford are just like most of you.....we only have so much money...and you either pay the bills and repair the house....or you go to Vegas and blow it all....what's it gonna be????) Did we make the right call? I don't know....but I'd like to think we did something right...because the 2002 Fcar was the best Fcar ever built in terms of overall power, performance, handling...and yes, overall quality rating. (compared to Fcars of the past....)

PacerX also brings up a good point that I've chosen NOT to bring up in the past...and that is the Firebird. Like it or not, the Firebird did impact what happened to Camaro and vice versa on many different levels. It impacted build complexity...option content and packaging, etc. Mustang did not have a cousin. Now...some of you can say "well, then kill the Firebird and make the Camaro the Pony Car. Well...that may be your opinion.....but tell that to the thousands of Trans Am enthusiasts that I spent the weekend with in Dayton two weeks ago......and run for your life! (I was SURE that I'd come out of the hotel one morning and see my B4C with Pontiac Sheetmetal.......)

Moreover, no one seems, at least up to page 5 to mention the larger issue of the coupe in today's market......they're disappearing....and the numbers continue to drop. One big reason? Accessibility and utility....and convenience. I don't like 4 doors. I love coupes. But I'm one in a market that has been shrinking for 25 years. Now...don't get me wrong....in my humble opinion, the Camaro should NEVER receive 4 doors........and I think there will always be a coupe market......but I kindly remind you that GM has been dominating the coupe market for the past ten years....go look at the registrations...........the bad news is that these other choices have impacted the Fcar. In buyer behaviour reports, we find that the "second choice" to the average Mustang Buyer was NOT a Camaro...it was a Grand Am or a Cavalier.........

Now...guys and gals...I like to win....there's nothing I'd like better than to outsell the Mustang. But looking at the portfolio as it existed in the 90s and into 2002, I'd say that performance was more important, perhaps than making an aging platform more appealing to a wider audience.....why would GM want to compete with itself? (I mean we already do.....but we need to avoid having all of our offerings stepping on each other....and that's damn near impossible.........)

I'll try to read more of this thread in the next day..but the hour is late and I have a 7:15am meeting in the morning....gotta be bright eyed for it!

Meanwhile....on a related note....got a spreadsheet today from another thread on this site....what is wrong and what needs changed....great stuff. Not a lot that we didn't already know....but there were a couple of things that I found interesting...but the best part is that there is a proposed solution (and a workable solution) to just about every problem

 

MAKE THE Z28 THE 1LE then and give it a little more flash, stripes or something and maybe an engine mod or 2 or whatever. Turn RPO 1LE into RPO Z28 if there can't be a limited Z28 model exactly the way people want it right now or even not in a few years. And you keep mentioning Z28 buyers wanting that perfomance for cheap but they would be willing to pay. Its like you make it as if the Z28 wasn't the most expensive Camaro for more than 3/4's of the Camaros public availablility. The 4th Gen is not the example or Gen to follow. 1 thing I can say is that I and alot of people do not want the Z28 to continue like it was in the 4th Gen and if it does you can bet alot of us real Camaro enthusiats or (read here) potential customers will be pissed, and I will be at the top of that list. I'd rather see it left out or just used for something special than be the way it was. It never was or should be the SS's b***h in everything or a car that gets upgraded into an SS. A Camaro manager should know what to really do with the model designations, know their history, and place them accordignly and in a way true to their history, that's what we are looking for here, not backwards and no revisionizm. Practically all the things we have ever brought up for the Z28's case has been inarguable, proven by GM in either brochures, ads, how the cars were made/bulit, price, which was top for more years, which is Camaro specific, and order of importance to the Camaro. I'd do it right next time, because even I am getting tired of arguing over this and feel that it just divides us over something that we should not be arguing about or even have to think about. It should be handled in a way that we can all or almost all be happy with, but NOT like the 4th Gen. If F**d can do things like this right or make lower production super-models, GM can, and by themselves. I'd also try to make the next Camaros really feel like they have lots of TQ the way they used to years back and try to match the sharp high G IROC-Z handling/feel, and let them look good and be cool this time. There's reasons that you feel a bias against 4th Gens, (you're not the only 1) lets not let that happen again.

 

Hey dont Blow up at RP yes he was an Asst BrandManager for Camaro. but there were other bosses that everything had to go through Plus Fed Guide lines.
As for knowing what really should go on with the model designs thats for the designers & engineers. Yes RP had some say but also they listened to what WE wanted. The car buyers when they should have went with what they thought.

I dont know the Auto Industries as well as Pacerx & RP do but I can tell you one thing in talking to all Camaro & mustang owners I found out that most Mustang owners agree the lost of the Camaro hurt Mustang sales for a little bit. I also found out that If Ford Builds the new 2005- 2006 Mustang that alot of F-body owners are going to the mustang. Why because of the styling of the car. Of course most of them are women & thats what the Mustang was designed for.

I for one think that if the Camaro comes back that at lease the T/A of the firebird should as well. This time RP listen to what we would like then go with what will sell & get both the younger group & the die hard Generation back in the car.

Off subject for a sec. RP can you convince NHRA that T-top cars are as sound as Hard top cars??? Dang I cant beleive they are talking about forcing every t-top car that dragraces to have a full roll cage in the car.

Krazzycowgirl
PNWCC South area Rep

 

(If newer models are any indication, maybe we'll see Camaro LS, LT, and SS.)

 

At the risk of violating my vow to not be involved in these dead horse beatings....

Keep in mind I think we're lost in a discussion of semantics here.

Red is absolutely correct in saying that the initial directive for the SS model was to be the "top dog".....in the NORMAL model line-ups.

What I've advocated all along is for the Z/28 to become what it started out as ...a special model, optioned for performance above all else.....no compromises.....OUTSIDE the "normal" model line-ups.

Ford does it....Corvette does it...why can't we?

PacerX is also absolutely correct in his replys that say the Top Dog buyers should get it all.....this is why I believe a "special model Z/28" would allow Chevy to say...." OK, we'll let you order it, BUT it will be limited in luxury content and hardcore.....and you'll have to pay for it."

I do believe we can almost have our cake and eat it too....

 

EXACTLY! Who do I write my check to?