It seems that things can degenerate pretty quickly around here. Now it's LS1 vs 3rd gen?

What's next?

 

Now that RedPlanet and a few others here have brought this thread back from it's hijacking, I'll reinterate what I hoped to accomplish.

1. That there is more to Camaro than just having an engine. If you want nothing more than an engine, go to GM's performance catalouge and buy yourself one. If you care so little about the Camaro name that everything outside of high horsepower numbers isn't important to the car, YOU are dooming the Camaro name!

2. If you feel that the base Camaro should be nothing more than an afterthought, YOU are dooming Camaro's name!

3. If you feel that Camaro should be nothing more than a limited production high powered car costing over $30,000, with no other models, YOU are dooming Camaro's name!

4. If you think GM should simply make a 350+horsepower car, package it for very young buyers, and give it away for under $20,000, not only are YOU dooming Camaro's name, you're also not exactly the brightest bulb in the store either being that none bought $23,000 Z28s, and there are scores of 2 year old Z28s at or under that price that are being snapped up by 30 somethings, but not under 21-somethings.

The purpose here is to get people to think about the CAMARO name, not only Z28 or SS. Seems there is a view of some that feel every Camaro generation was identical to the 4th gen (high performance car with little else to offer) and don't realize that Camaro once was what a G35 (or a host of other stylish coupes for that matter) is today.

The Camaro guys got limited resources, and instead of investing on new cosmetics, the money was invested towards performance improvements. From our enthusiast standpoint, it was the best way to spend the money (I know I sure benifitted from it ). But the questions still stand. What if instead of a revised exhaust system, the money went into a touring package? What if instead of designing 3 different noses for Firebird, the money went into improving material quality? These sort of things.

RP understood the points I was getting at, and many others here as well. I also think this was just proven even more clearly by this turning into a debate over something that's relatively trivial (SS, Z28, it doesn't matter. You're going to pay for the most powerful version regardless as to what it's called).

Let's look at the big picture. You want Camaro to have a long life, able to weather automotive and consumer cycles, you have to have a car that's great beyond the "engine in a box" mentality.

If you don't feel this way, then (as someone wrongly applied to themself ) you are part of the problem, NOTthe solution.

 

Congratulations guion, (and where have you been lately BTW), you have just condensed 11 pages of thread into this one important message.

Do enough people really grasp this concept? If you are under 30, is this a completely foreign notion?

The "Camaro enthusiasts" that don't grasp it.....are the ones hammering nails in the Camaro's coffin.

 

EXACTLY!!

And RP, I don't know how it came out like that but even when I read my post it came off harsh to me and I did not intend it to be that way, I should have proof read again from the begining. I think most here know that I usually say things in a kinda serious/kinda not way, but that didn't sound like it much. I definetly appreciate anything you've ever done good for the Camaro and I know you care, but I question your decisions and directions constantly. We're people passionate about 1 car and would like it both our way as many feel also, but really, the Z28 vs. SS thing needs to be resovled in a fair way. And I didn't take nicely to your "GM Guy/Z28 Guy" thing because that's not really how we feel or want it. The Camaro and the Z28 name mean ALOT to me. (And to you 4th Gen guys, you can have your opinions about your cars or even Thirds and I'll keep my opinions about them, which will never change. As long as you are happy with your cars is all that matters regardless, just my opinion. And to the haters, whatever)

 

12 pages and counting....

 

Quote:

Seems there is a view of some that feel every Camaro generation was identical to the 4th gen (high performance car with little else to offer) and don't realize that Camaro once was what a G35 (or a host of other stylish coupes for that matter) is today.

Funny you all harp on the 4th Gen. If you talk to anyone close to the Camaro they will tell you that most people associate Camaro with the third Gen. Matter of fact GM did a marketing study where they sthowed random people all 35 years of Camaro and asked them ehich one they most thought was what Camaro stood for. the answer was a 1985 IROC-Z. Now before you 3rd Gen guys go tooting your horn think about this. The public views the Camaro as a low-quality, gas guzzling, mullet mobile. Given the 4th Gens low profile with the public (your average person is not really aware of them or knows much about them I have noticed), is it possible that the 3rd Gen and the consition that many on the road are in is what has destoryed the Camaro's image and appeal? Wouldn't it make sense to belive that most of the Camaro's negative sterotypes can from the car (1985 IROC) that people associate the name with?


Also saying the Camaro was the equivelent of the G35 at anypoint in it's history is a bit of revisionism. The orignial idea behind the Camaro was to compete with the Mustang as a pony car, which means that it was intended to be affordable. The G35 costs a nice chuck of change and is a two seater. The Camaro is about sporty 4 seat performance at a Chevrolet price, that simple. I think on thing that people are missing is that alot of the demographic who bought Camaro's in the 70's and 80's (i.e. younger buyers 20-30), buy import sportscars now like the Celica and RSX and even 350Z instead.

 

No the Third Gen did not give any images, (I honestly never hear people negatively stereotyping ANY Gen of these cars and if I never came to the boards I would have never heard that dumb BS at all) they are just the most recent popular Camaros in peoples minds, every1 had 1 and they are still out there in pretty good numbers. (many still in good condition, some not of course, they are not new) You gotta admit they definetly left a mark without need 500HP to do it. Those images of terrible gas mileage and what not are shared by ALL musclecars and V8 cars in general. I hear that BS all the time from people until I bring up how engines from the L98/LT1/LS1 manage to make power and still get good gas mileage, especially the LS1. EFI and technology have changed that and some just don't even know whats up at all. And I think the cheap thing with the 4th Gen was that plastic look and mechanics calling LT1's "problematic." (not saying they all are) Thirds get this cheap thing sometimes too, but I see things in the Third int. that looks better than some interiors today such as no cast lines anywhere and just the simplicity of it. The rattles sometimes cause people to think that too but what do you expect when you have a suspension as tight as they do, if it were more compliant like the 4th Gen they would be either reduced or gone but then it doesn't feel the same or obtain the same G numbers. They don't bother me, I really don't have any and neither do some others I'm in/detail for people.

 

Guion can speak for himself...and I'm sure he will...but since you used my quote, I'll respond. I don't think guion is pointing the finger at the 4th gen....I think he's pointing the finger at the people who only knew the 4th gen. People.... formula......like yourself. Before you go off on "I know all about the cars" or "I've seen all the cars" or "I know people"......the fact of the matter is you didn't live it. And for those of us who have "lived it" through several Camaro generations....I can say that I see Guion's point....EXACTLY.

Quote:

Also saying the Camaro was the equivelent of the G35 at anypoint in it's history is a bit of revisionism. The orignial idea behind the Camaro was to compete with the Mustang as a pony car, which means that it was intended to be affordable. The G35 costs a nice chuck of change and is a two seater. The Camaro is about sporty 4 seat performance at a Chevrolet price, that simple. I think on thing that people are missing is that alot of the demographic who bought Camaro's in the 70's and 80's (i.e. younger buyers 20-30), buy import sportscars now like the Celica and RSX and even 350Z instead.

I'm also with Guion on this G35 thing. The G35 is not cheap....but the Camaro never was either (relatively, speaking). And you're right....the kind of people that used to buy Camaro/Firebird...are now buying Celica, RSX and 350Z........so what do we do about it?

 

Um... he isn't named "formula79" and have a pic of a 2nd gen 79 formula for an avatar for nothing... he did own a 79 formula... I'm not sure how old Brandon is, but he did experience the car.

I myself have owned an 89 and a 99 Camaro.... A lot of folks here know more than just the 4th Gen. I am 31 1/2 years old... I grew up through the 2nd and 3rd Gen cars... so I am not "boxed in" to the 4th Gen either, yet I have a strong appreciation for the 4th Gen car...

I, as a lot of people do, love all Generations of Camaro...

 

Um....that's not what I'm talking about.


Just because someone knows what a '79 Formula drives like....doesn't mean they are aware of what the prevailing attitudes and impressions of enthusiasts and the lay buying public were when they were brand spanking new.

Just because someone has a '79 Formula....doesn't mean they know what it was like to be a 19 year old...cruising in a '79 Formula....in 1979. You couldn't know.

If I bought a '55 Chevy....it doesn't matter how familiar I am with the car....I could never know what it was like to drive one in 1955. I could never know how people looked at them, liked or disliked them,......just plain how people viewed them, back in the day.


That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Well, I thought I covered both of those angles in my post, but I guess not...

Let's use me as an example.

I was born in 1972.
I grew up looking and living through the 2nd Gen, and the 3rd Gen.
My second car was a 1989 Camaro. Bought it with 4000 miles on it, when it was 1/2 year old.
I lived with the car for 4 years. Sold it with 100,000 miles.
I also owned a 99 Camaro. Lived with it for 3 years, and 45,000 miles.

So... I lived through alot of Camaro's lifespan. What am I missing?

 

1967 through 1989.

 

How so?

Seriously?

I'll give you 1967 through, say 1977 or so, but after that even at the age of 6 or so in 1978, I can honestly say I was influenced by Camaro.

I knew "4" cars: Corvette, Camaro, Firebird, and Trans Am (Ya, it took a while for me to realize Firebird and T/A were the same car... I was only 6!)

 

You missed my point.....

Most people associate the name Camaro with a 3rd Gen IROC (So marketing research proves). Also it well known that the Camaro's image has taken a hit. It is viewed as a poluting, rusting, gas burning, relic of a past age that "less sophisticated" people drive. I know to you and me that sounds insane, but outside of our little Camaro bubble that is how the term Camaro is viewed...especially among people who know nothing about cars.. Now generally speaking the 4th Gen is not any of to thing I listed above...I have never seen a rusty one, they get decent gas milage, and are good on the environment. Thought styling is subjective, the Chrylser styling made them look more upscale IMO.

It is here that I go back to my original statement....

If people most think of a 1985 best exemplifies the name Camaro, yet they hold all the above mentioned stereotypes about the name Camaro, is it not logical to assume the rusting fleet of Third Gens on the road, and the general name that drives them is what is dragging the Camaro name down?


I am sorry....saying the Camaro used to be what the G35 is just nonsense. And even if you are going to streach it that far, a Camaro would be the 350Z and the G35 would be the Pontiac Firebird. Even though I think both are a bit pricey to be related to anything F-body...I have seen 350Z's go for upwards of $37K.


Z284Ever...you may have lived in the past....but I think you are also stuck there. You need to snap out of it and come back to todays reality.

 

FWIW, G35 is adding an AWD option... Hmmm... sounds like my idea for the 5th Gen!