Are the Camaro enthusiasts dooming the Camaro name?
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Z284ever
Who is everyone? Not me. Not jg95z28. Not steves. Not Doug Harden.
We all want a REAL Z/28....and are willing to pay for it.
Maybe ProudPony's idea is worth looking at. What if SS really became a real SS again, in that you could option it in a multitude of ways. Let it come in at a mid price...include powertrain, some suspension and trim and make it available with every option. As PP said....."option it until you go broke". You don't think dealers would mostly stock $40,000 SS's?
But a mid-$20K SS version would still be available to cover that segment.
This would leave the Z/28 free to fulfill it's mission.....and maybe have some brand equity left in it for a 6th gen Camaro Z/28.
Who is everyone? Not me. Not jg95z28. Not steves. Not Doug Harden.
We all want a REAL Z/28....and are willing to pay for it.
Maybe ProudPony's idea is worth looking at. What if SS really became a real SS again, in that you could option it in a multitude of ways. Let it come in at a mid price...include powertrain, some suspension and trim and make it available with every option. As PP said....."option it until you go broke". You don't think dealers would mostly stock $40,000 SS's?
But a mid-$20K SS version would still be available to cover that segment.
This would leave the Z/28 free to fulfill it's mission.....and maybe have some brand equity left in it for a 6th gen Camaro Z/28.
I'm sorry guys, I just don't see SS being top-dog any more than RS.
Perhaps I am wrong (I certainly don't know everything about Camaro's history - though I am learning!) but to my knowledge no SS ever won a Trans-Am championship in F/S trim. That accomplishment deserves some damn dignity... please.
To me - and apparently most other average "car guys" - SS drums up an image of "better than the average model" accross all models of Chevy products. It means nothing significant to the Camaro. SS is found on everything from trucks to cars to SUVs... what makes it special to Camaro now? Sorry, but if you want to get my attention directed towards your new offering SS is too blanded-out.... use Z/28 and I'll know what you are talking about.
Z284ever read my meaning EXACTLY as I hoped it would come accross. SS can be a very important part of the whole lineup, and it should. It would likely outsell the Z/28 offering (especially if Z/28 cars are a limited quantity run - as I would encourage) if options are laid out right because the majority of buyers will want the bells and whistles available on the SS, but the folks wanting something different deserve to get it too. That's where the Z fits in - special, different, keeping zest, freshness, and no-BS performance in the fray.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Originally posted by PacerX
K, sort out your own quotes here, and I'll run down the list...
".......the 1LE becomes a comprehensive performance package that includes big wheels, good tires, big brakes, suspension, seats ...the whole nine yards...for afew extra thou. But it's only available on a six speed coupe. AND.........instead of calling it the 1LE we'll......just for me.....call it Z/28.
The "low line" Z/28 that you've previously described ...simply becomes a base V8 Camaro."
GM will not discard the marketing power of the Z28 name just to make a SMALL number of Z28 purists happy. GM is in the business of selling cars - lots of them.
"Z28: 400 hp six spd manual only, good seats (recaro), good shifter, some lightweight Z28 specific wheels, a 1LE type adjustable suspension, brembo brakes and hud.
SS: All of the above except for the supension/brakes (this would offset the price of the two models)."
Won't happen. As I have stated about 100 times here, the guy who buys the most expensive car deserves the best performance the line can offer. Furthermore, GM has ZERO vested interest in catering to the people who only want a manual (I'm one of them, BTW...) and alienating the rest of the market. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Corvettes are a different matter entirely. GM could paint them all orange with purple stripes and giant pink flowers down the side, charge $5,000 more for it and they'd SELL EVERY ONE THEY MAKE.
I'd also bet dollars to doughnuts that the next Z28 WILL NOT get a HUD standard. The option will be reserved for more expensive cars and probably be included in a package.
"IMO they should be priced about the same. Just remember no one here ever expected the Z28 to cost under 30K. If it's done right I'd even pay 40K for a Z28. Any more than that and I'll take my check book to the BMW dealership and get an M3."
1) Camaro WILL NOT push the Corvette for price OR performance. It isn't going to happen. GM makes money hand over fist on Corvette, it's the corporate flagship, and it has a status and following that Camaro cannot match - sorry, but it's true. I love Camaros for what they are, but they are not Corvettes.
2) In current dollars, you're about the only guy on the planet that will pay $40,000 for a Z28.
3) Skip the BMW. The CTS pounds it straight into the sand. Nicer, faster, higher quality, better handling car. Make sure that if you do take your checkbook to the dealership, you remember exactly where it is, because you're going to spend quite a while there over the next few years.
"Like PacerX has been saying, people want options. The more the merrier. And guess what? Companies love selling cars with options. Makes them a ton of money. That's a win-win for everyone there. So why am I bothering to offer a 6-speed only, hardtop only, manual and cloth seat only model in a line that is supposed to sell in volumes? Mustang Cobra is the fastest of the Mustangs...and yes, it still can be had with leather, power everything and with a convertible roof."
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"The Z28 will just be produced less than say the SS because it wouldn't be for everyone."
Again (for the 101st time...) GM has ZERO interest in limiting a market to make a TINY segment of the market happy. They need to sell 100,000 of these things.
"I understand the fact that option make car companies money but that isn't the case with the Cobra. All Cobras come the same way your only choice is hardtop or convertable."
It most certainly IS the case with the Cobra. Cobras are HIGH CONTENT cars. Leather, etc... Believe me when I tell you, a large chunk of that $33,000-$35,000 sticker is fluff (leather, big stereo, etc...).
"Wouldn't this idea be the least cost effective, especially when even the SS is not going to be the model with the biggest production?"
No, and here's why:
People will pay $8,000 more for an SS - and they did. Even the Z28 purists here balk at a $33,000 car and say it is too expensive. You may not, but the mantra on this board has been, and continues to be, affordable RWD V8.
If it proves anything at all, it proves that the average Z28 buyer DOES NOT WANT a $33,000 car. They want a $26,000 car. They can HAVE a terrific performing $26,000 car, but they cannot dictate certain conditions that artifically curtails GM's ability to sell a higher-profit, better equipped car - especially since they don't want to pay for it.
K, sort out your own quotes here, and I'll run down the list...
".......the 1LE becomes a comprehensive performance package that includes big wheels, good tires, big brakes, suspension, seats ...the whole nine yards...for afew extra thou. But it's only available on a six speed coupe. AND.........instead of calling it the 1LE we'll......just for me.....call it Z/28.
The "low line" Z/28 that you've previously described ...simply becomes a base V8 Camaro."
GM will not discard the marketing power of the Z28 name just to make a SMALL number of Z28 purists happy. GM is in the business of selling cars - lots of them.
"Z28: 400 hp six spd manual only, good seats (recaro), good shifter, some lightweight Z28 specific wheels, a 1LE type adjustable suspension, brembo brakes and hud.
SS: All of the above except for the supension/brakes (this would offset the price of the two models)."
Won't happen. As I have stated about 100 times here, the guy who buys the most expensive car deserves the best performance the line can offer. Furthermore, GM has ZERO vested interest in catering to the people who only want a manual (I'm one of them, BTW...) and alienating the rest of the market. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Corvettes are a different matter entirely. GM could paint them all orange with purple stripes and giant pink flowers down the side, charge $5,000 more for it and they'd SELL EVERY ONE THEY MAKE.
I'd also bet dollars to doughnuts that the next Z28 WILL NOT get a HUD standard. The option will be reserved for more expensive cars and probably be included in a package.
"IMO they should be priced about the same. Just remember no one here ever expected the Z28 to cost under 30K. If it's done right I'd even pay 40K for a Z28. Any more than that and I'll take my check book to the BMW dealership and get an M3."
1) Camaro WILL NOT push the Corvette for price OR performance. It isn't going to happen. GM makes money hand over fist on Corvette, it's the corporate flagship, and it has a status and following that Camaro cannot match - sorry, but it's true. I love Camaros for what they are, but they are not Corvettes.
2) In current dollars, you're about the only guy on the planet that will pay $40,000 for a Z28.
3) Skip the BMW. The CTS pounds it straight into the sand. Nicer, faster, higher quality, better handling car. Make sure that if you do take your checkbook to the dealership, you remember exactly where it is, because you're going to spend quite a while there over the next few years.
"Like PacerX has been saying, people want options. The more the merrier. And guess what? Companies love selling cars with options. Makes them a ton of money. That's a win-win for everyone there. So why am I bothering to offer a 6-speed only, hardtop only, manual and cloth seat only model in a line that is supposed to sell in volumes? Mustang Cobra is the fastest of the Mustangs...and yes, it still can be had with leather, power everything and with a convertible roof."
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"The Z28 will just be produced less than say the SS because it wouldn't be for everyone."
Again (for the 101st time...) GM has ZERO interest in limiting a market to make a TINY segment of the market happy. They need to sell 100,000 of these things.
"I understand the fact that option make car companies money but that isn't the case with the Cobra. All Cobras come the same way your only choice is hardtop or convertable."
It most certainly IS the case with the Cobra. Cobras are HIGH CONTENT cars. Leather, etc... Believe me when I tell you, a large chunk of that $33,000-$35,000 sticker is fluff (leather, big stereo, etc...).
"Wouldn't this idea be the least cost effective, especially when even the SS is not going to be the model with the biggest production?"
No, and here's why:
People will pay $8,000 more for an SS - and they did. Even the Z28 purists here balk at a $33,000 car and say it is too expensive. You may not, but the mantra on this board has been, and continues to be, affordable RWD V8.
If it proves anything at all, it proves that the average Z28 buyer DOES NOT WANT a $33,000 car. They want a $26,000 car. They can HAVE a terrific performing $26,000 car, but they cannot dictate certain conditions that artifically curtails GM's ability to sell a higher-profit, better equipped car - especially since they don't want to pay for it.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by cmc
What if the Z28/1LE high-performance/low-content car was drastically lower-volume than the high-option SS? Might that appease buyers?
What if the Z28/1LE high-performance/low-content car was drastically lower-volume than the high-option SS? Might that appease buyers?
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 681
From: Houston, TX USA
Originally posted by guionM
The cheaper performance car being lower volume than the more expensive "upper market" one?
The cheaper performance car being lower volume than the more expensive "upper market" one?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
PX, I understand what you are saying about GM having to make money. My suggestion was similar to how the fourth-gen line up was set up. The only difference is that the Z28 would have all the good stuff standard. I'll say this again the fourth-gen Z28 was faster and the 1LE Z28 handled better than the SS. I have alot of track time/autocross time under my belt and from what I have seen the Z28 is always faster than the SS. The extra 20hp the SS made on the dyno was canceled out by the heavier wheels, ect. I didn't see anyone having a problem paying the extra 10k for an SS then. I don't understand how GM wouldn't make money if they followed my idea. Also in one of RP's posts he said that he was getting the idea that most of the Z28 guys wanted a specific suspension package. So with that in mind the Z28/SS packages should be similar to how the fourth-gens were set up but the Z28 would have a better suspension package than the SS. If that's the case the only things left are my recaros, brembos and the lightweight Z28 wheels, and this will cost GM zero development dollars. See I already saved GM some cash 
.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally posted by ProudPony
PLEASE DON"T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.
PLEASE DON"T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.
Honestly I agree with you a lot of the time Proud, but you'll never convince me that because 300 stripped Mustangs sold at a rediculous premium, it proves no-fluff cars sell. If you stopped to think about it you'd realize your R example is not a good one. I don't want to get into my opinions on the R itself because it'd be getting off topic, and you probably wouldn't like what I'd have to say anyway.
I know a lot of Corvettes are sold at $50,000, and a lot of other two seaters too....but uh, wasn't the argument that stripped down cars will sell? Corvettes aren't stripped. It has been mentioned that there's an apparent misconception that Z06 Corvettes are "stripped". They're hardtop and 6 speed only, but just about anything else you can get on the base Corvette is available in Z06. Viper? It is interesting to note the standard features on the new Viper. An in-dash 6 CD changer. Power windows/locks/mirrors. Adjustable pedals. Leather everywhere. And let's not forget, every new Viper is a convertible. Why would they toss the FRC of the last generation if it was so popular?
In the end, I'm left wondering why we'd even demand that Chevy build x amount of restricted-optioned Z28's when one could just order one any way they would like? Don't want T-tops? DELETE. Can't stomach an auto? Check the 6 speed box. While you're at it, go with cloth interior and manual seats too. Then tack on the 1LE suspension. I can't fathom Chevy taking the risk of building 15,000 "Real Z/28's" and having half of them rot on dealer lots after the "real" enthusiasts get their fill...all in the name of "pumping up" the Camaro brand.
Last edited by Z28Wilson; Aug 26, 2003 at 06:10 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by cmc
Don't know, just a thought. But it does make sense that bringing back the Camaro where the high-end (SS) car is slower and costs more than the high-performance car...
Don't know, just a thought. But it does make sense that bringing back the Camaro where the high-end (SS) car is slower and costs more than the high-performance car...
Camaro SS was indeed quicker than a Z28. SS's last year (1972) had 15 less horsepower, but 60 more lbs/ft of torque than the Z. Z28's slightly higher horsepower and lighter engine made it a better more balenced handler. As far as the 4th gen SS position, it's actually pretty close to where the last version was.
The real problem with the ongoing Z28 vs SS war is that the Z28 has a longer history with Camaro by far, and SS has stolen items that belonged on the Z28 (ie: hood scoop & improved handling), and it seems that the guys responsible for Camaro seem poised to write Z28 off in favor of the SS.
When Scott was out here in January, he made a good case for SS, and I've dug around occasionally, and though I hate to say it, he was right.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Originally posted by guionM
...
The real problem with the ongoing Z28 vs SS war is that the Z28 has a longer history with Camaro by far, and SS has stolen items that belonged on the Z28 (ie: hood scoop & improved handling), and it seems that the guys responsible for Camaro seem poised to write Z28 off in favor of the SS.....
...
The real problem with the ongoing Z28 vs SS war is that the Z28 has a longer history with Camaro by far, and SS has stolen items that belonged on the Z28 (ie: hood scoop & improved handling), and it seems that the guys responsible for Camaro seem poised to write Z28 off in favor of the SS.....
You know I was just thinking.... Sure "SS" has come to stand for the top performance Chevy (Corvette excluded), be it a Silverado, Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro, etc....
However.... I've never heard of a Ford F-150 "Cobra", or a Ford Taurus "Mach-1"...
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by jg95z28
Don't forget about the stripes!
You know I was just thinking.... Sure "SS" has come to stand for the top performance Chevy (Corvette excluded), be it a Silverado, Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro, etc....
However.... I've never heard of a Ford F-150 "Cobra", or a Ford Taurus "Mach-1"...
Don't forget about the stripes!
You know I was just thinking.... Sure "SS" has come to stand for the top performance Chevy (Corvette excluded), be it a Silverado, Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro, etc....
However.... I've never heard of a Ford F-150 "Cobra", or a Ford Taurus "Mach-1"...
BTW: I forgot to include those stolen stripes!
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Originally posted by guionM
Good point. Maybe Ford will go back the their 60s & early 70s practice of calling all their sport models "GT".
BTW: I forgot to include those stolen stripes!
Good point. Maybe Ford will go back the their 60s & early 70s practice of calling all their sport models "GT".
BTW: I forgot to include those stolen stripes!
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Originally posted by guionM
Camaro SS was indeed quicker than a Z28. SS's last year (1972) had 15 less horsepower, but 60 more lbs/ft of torque than the Z. Z28's slightly higher horsepower and lighter engine made it a better more balenced handler. As far as the 4th gen SS position, it's actually pretty close to where the last version was.
The real problem with the ongoing Z28 vs SS war is that the Z28 has a longer history with Camaro by far, and SS has stolen items that belonged on the Z28 (ie: hood scoop & improved handling), and it seems that the guys responsible for Camaro seem poised to write Z28 off in favor of the SS.
When Scott was out here in January, he made a good case for SS, and I've dug around occasionally, and though I hate to say it, he was right.
Camaro SS was indeed quicker than a Z28. SS's last year (1972) had 15 less horsepower, but 60 more lbs/ft of torque than the Z. Z28's slightly higher horsepower and lighter engine made it a better more balenced handler. As far as the 4th gen SS position, it's actually pretty close to where the last version was.
The real problem with the ongoing Z28 vs SS war is that the Z28 has a longer history with Camaro by far, and SS has stolen items that belonged on the Z28 (ie: hood scoop & improved handling), and it seems that the guys responsible for Camaro seem poised to write Z28 off in favor of the SS.
When Scott was out here in January, he made a good case for SS, and I've dug around occasionally, and though I hate to say it, he was right.
2. The Z28 also had all the good performance parts included in the package. The SS was just a trim package in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th gen.
3. Scott can feed you guy's all the propaganda he wants. As far as I'm concerned Chevrolet has some SS agenda going on over there.
Scott has his opinion and I have mine. I disagree with him 100%. What your statement tells me is that Scott is against the Z28 and he is all for the SS. That is why he wants this debate to stop.