PacerX

The number HAS TO be in the neighborhood of 100,000 if I have done the math right in my head for optimum assembly plant utilization.

Now, here's a very interesting point... whatever the enthusiasts want, Corvette caps the price and performance. The base Corvette will FOREVER remain the price point that Camaro cannot closely approach. There's a built-in limit to the price the car can cost, regardless of how much we love Camaros... Camaros WILL NOT impinge on Corvettes relative to price, and Corvette sets the upper level of performance by default.

In short, your best friend for a future Camaro as you describe it is the "plastic wonder"...

hmmm....

how odd...


Given the parameters we have discussed, methinks that a viable definition of the future car has been roughly set up.

1) We've benchmarked who the target market is, and which vehicles we want to take on at which price points and with what features.

2) We've set up appropriate option levels and content at those points.

3) We've provided for, in other posts, what things to avoid in the future, and will re-examine what Camaro has traditionally done right in the past.

Base car -
Target market: Mustang, Solara, Accord, Sebring.
Target performance: 350Z, RX-8, Mustang GT, WRX - should comfortably out-perform Mustang V6, Solara, Accord and Sebring.
Target interior: New Mustang, 350Z, RX-8 - should comfortably exceed the Sebring, Accord and Solara.


"GT" Model -
Target Market: 350Z, RX-8, Audi TT
Target performance: 350Z, RX-8, Mustang GT, WRX - should comfortably out-perform Mustang V6, Solara, Accord and Sebring.
Target interior: G35, Audi TT, RX-8.


Z28 -
Target Market: Mustang Mach 1, Cobra, more performance minded folks who are willing to give up amenities for performance.
Target Performance: Should approach or exceed the Mach 1 and Cobra, and comfortably out-perform 350Z, RX-8, Mustang GT, WRX STi and Mitsubishi Evo.
Target Interior: New Mustang, 350Z, RX-8 - should comfortably exceed the Sebring, Accord and Solara.


SS -
Target Market: Mustang Mach 1, Cobra, G35. No compromises vehicle, top-drawer performance, top-drawer interior, limited only at the upper end by the Corvette.
Target performance: Comfortably out-perform Mach 1, Cobra, GTO, CTSv and any and all other comers that have price points below Corvette.
Target Interior: Target interior: G35, Audi TT, RX-8.


Even in an SS, a Nav system is a tough sell for me...


Dear GM... howza 'bout y'all up and kick everyone's *** this time around?

guionM

Z284ever I think explained what I was getting at & I think Pacer and I are finally on the same ship here!

Perhaps mid-level is misnamed. Grand Turing or Luxury Sport is probally a better term for what I'm trying to sell here, a car to bring in the sporting folks that want something a bit fancier, but aren't into gut wrenching performance, yet don't want the stigma of picking up a base car.

I also wanted to do this in a way that it wouldn't cost GM much to do, and answered their concerns, including CAFE and Camaro's future survivability.

An option group that's going to be avalible anyway, with different interior trim and seat pattern (I'll forgo the optional navigation system ), that's based on a powerful V6 engine and refinements from the base Camaro with upgraded wheels & tires and it's own designation and a price just below a Z28 pretty much does that.

This doesn't involve watering down performance Camaros, doesn't doom Camaro the next time things go bad, doesn't ignore CAFE, and still expands it's appeal. 100,000 annual sales (compared with no more than 70,000 in the 4th gen's best year) is exactly what I'd hope for.

That means we would have peeled away alot of Mustang buyers, and we are in the game again, instead of resigning ourselves to has been status with a single specialized model only a relative few people will buy.

Z284ever

I agree with that.

I think that we could really fine tune this debate with more precise info on Camaro....especially on powertrains.

Jason E

What everyone has said sounds great to me in terms of where the base car should be, the GT type car, the Z28 and the SS. Only one thing I want to add...

A 5.3 optional in the base car and GT type car. If the base engine really is 250hp, then fine, make it a 290-300hp engine. I don't care. Someone said before Red sold them on the idea that there is no need for a midlevel V8...

You will NEVER convince me of that. Like I said before, look at previous gen's production numbers....SOME JUST WANT A LESS EXPENSIVE V8. No one can tell me a base V8 is a bad idea...

If Ford can have 3 V8s, we should be able to have 2-3. One should be a cheapy for the masses. We ARE trying to cater to the masses, are we not? Isn't that the whole point of this thread? Well guys, the masses see Camaro and think V8. Fine, make a luxury model that appeals to them...but if its a V6, it WON'T HAVE THE "CAMARO" APPEAL TO IT...

Stepping off my soapbox now...

PacerX

Okey dokey... let's start here then...

I'm going to add some complexity so we can look hard at taking it out later...

Base:
255hp HF V6.
5L40E or 4L60E Automatic.
"Beefed" CTS Manual.
Standard 16x~8" steel wheels and tires.
Optional 16x8" cast aluminum wheels and tires.
IRS.
Optional Anti-lock Brakes.
Optional ASR.
4-wheel disc brakes, twin piston fronts, single piston rears with integral PB (NO DRUM AND HAT NONSENSE), (size???).
Seating: Manual driver and passenger seats with standard manual fore/aft and recliner and optional manual lumbar adjustment. Standard height-adjustable shoulder belts in front, non-adjustable 3 point belts in rear.
Interior: 2 color options (graphite, tan), cloth only. Single, non-lighted passenger vanity mirror. Standard visor extensions. Standard "CD holder" driver's side visor. Standard manual locks. Standard manual window regulators (no power option).
Radio: Standard CD player, current Camaro head unit.

Grand Touring ("Berlinetta"????):
"Beefed" 275hp HF V6.
5L40E or 4L60E Automatic.
"Beefed" CTS Manual.
17x~8" 245/40/VR17 wheels and tires.
Standard Anti-lock Brakes.
Standard ASR.
Standard 1LE handling package.
4-wheel disc brakes, integral PB caliper, (size??? - OPTIONAL: bigger than the base... matches Z28).
Seating: 2+2 seating, power driver's 6-way and recliner standard, optional memory seating (8-way), optional power passenger seat, optional heated seats, standard manual lumbar adjustment. Standard height-adjustable shoulder belts in front, non-adjustable 3 point belts in rear.
Interior: 3 color options (graphite, tan, red), exterior color-keyed instrumentation and decoratives (see GTO), leather optional. Optional auto-dimming rearview mirror. Optional dual-zone climate control. Standard single, non-lighted passenger vanity mirror. Standard visor extensions. Standard "CD holder" driver's side visor. OPTIONAL lighted driver's and passenger's vanity mirrors. Standard "enhanced" RKE power locks. Standard power window regulators (no manual option).
Exterior: "Berlinetta" badging, Camaro hood and rear spoiler. Optional body package. Standard foglamps.
Radio: Standard CD player, current Camaro head unit. Optional: XM equipped, MP3 compatible, 10-disc CD changer, 500 watt sound system w/ subwoofer.

Z28:
Corvette derived 350-375hp LSx variant (good rod bolts, forged pistons, forged rods).
"Beefed" 5L40E (5L60E?).
"Beefed" T-56 - better shift forks, better syncros, better shifter, better clutch.
17x9" wheels and tires (min. 275/40/ZR-17).
Optional Anti-lock Brakes.
Optional ASR.
Standard: Larger than base 4-wheel disc brakes, integral PB caliper, OPTIONAL: large brake package.
Standard: Z28 handling package.
Optional: 1LE handling package.
Seating: Standard manual driver and passenger seats with standard manual fore/aft and recliner and optional manual lumbar adjustment. Optional power driver's seat w/ power recliner and manual lumbar adjustment. Standard height-adjustable shoulder belts in front, non-adjustable 3 point belts in rear.
Interior: 2 color options (graphite, tan), cloth only. Standard non-auto dimming rearview mirror (no option). Standard non dual zone climate control (no option). Standard single, non-lighted passenger vanity mirror. Standard visor extensions. Standard "CD holder" driver's side visor. Standard manual locks, optional "enhanced" RKE power locks. Standard manual window regulators (optional power window regulators).
Exterior: Z28 bulged hood, Z28 rear spoiler, Z28/375hp badging, 1LE badging (if equipped). Optional, color keyed racing stripes. Optional body package. Optional foglamps.
Radio: Standard CD player, current Camaro head unit. Optional: XM equipped, MP3 compatible, 10-disc CD changer, 500 watt sound system w/ subwoofer.


SS:
Corvette derived 405-425hp LSx variant (good rod bolts, forged pistons, forged rods).
"Beefed" 5L40E (5L60E?).
"Beefed" T-56 - better shift forks, better syncros, better shifter, better clutch.
17x9" 245/40/ZR-17's up front, 18x11" 315/35/ZR18's in back.
Standard Anti-lock Brakes.
Standard ASR.
Standard Large Brake Package, 2 piston rears with integral PB calipers, full floating 4 piston fronts.
Standard: 1LE handling package.
Seating: 2+2 seating, power driver's 6-way and recliner standard, STANDARD memory seating (8-way), optional power passenger seat, optional heated seats, standard manual lumbar adjustment. Standard height-adjustable shoulder belts in front, non-adjustable 3 point belts in rear.
Interior: 3 color options (graphite, tan, red), STANDARD leather, exterior color-keyed instrumentation and decoratives (see GTO), embroidered "SS" logos on seats, build # plaque w/ specifications (think C3 Corvette here - horsepower, torque, displacement, final drive, transmission, BUILD NUMBER - XXXX of XXXX). Standard auto-dimming rearview mirror. Standard dual-zone climate control. Standard visor extensions. Standard "CD holder" driver's side visor. STANDARD lighted driver's and passenger's vanity mirrors. STANDARD power locks. Standard "enhanced" RKE power locks, STANDARD power window regulators.
Exterior: SS specific hood w/ scoop, SS specific rear spoiler, SS specific body package, SS/425hp and 1LE badging. Optional, color keyed racing stripes. Standard foglamps.
Radio: Standard XM equipped, MP3 compatible, 10-disc CD changer, 500 watt sound system w/ subwoofer.


Hell, this is a mess...
I oughta do this on an Excel spreadsheet. Anybody got a way to post that as a JPG here if I email it to them???

Z284ever

OK PX, we've got a start...but we're also going out on a limb with some assumptions that I'm not sure will materialise.

1) Someone really needs to convince me that GM will use the HF V6 in the Camaro. Personally, I think it'd be great...but I just don't think GM is ready to pull the trigger on this one.

2) RP has been pretty clear about only one door "innard" being engineered. So, I think crank windows are out.

3) Berlinetta and SS get 1LE standard... but 1LE is optional on Z/28??!!

Also...we may need to define with a "mission statement" what the role of each Camaro model should be. It will help us better focus which options should be standard, optional and unavailable on each model.

PacerX

"3) Berlinetta and SS get 1LE standard... but 1LE is optional on Z/28??!!"

I'm rethinking that...

Wait for the spreadsheet.


I'll go with power windows all the way around too, and power locks.

dnovotny

That's the whole point, GM never will.

A HF V6 costs more than any LS* based V8. Exactly why would bean counters sell a more expensive 6-cylinder model for less than a V8 model? You'll make up the difference by not upgrading the interior between models, using a cheaper suspension and the list goes on and on. Basically, to squeeze in that 6-cylinder model that's competitive you've reduced significantly profit for the 6-cylinder (which negates the advantage of increased volume) or you will cut on a lot of corners for each model to reduce cost which will doom the 5th gen when compared to the competition. And I know about the Trailblazer, but its an SUV, which despite the shift in product development are still GMs main priority and focus, not cars.

All the suggestions in this post are nothing new. Competitive suspension, chassis, interior of course are needed. This doesn't require a brain surgeon to figure out. But where does this business argument lead us. To the death of any new generations. GM knew this 5-10 years ago when it canceled any future plans because the business case couldn't be made. We still haven't made it. The only argument for the car is to re-enter a market that GM has no presence in today: but the new GTO is a stop-gap and it will be filled in with the re-designed Monaro which can be badged with a Chevrolet/Pontiac variant and will be available in the same time frame a 5th gen could appear.

PacerX

GTO and Camaro are two different cars with two different missions.

GTO is a mid-size, semi-luxury vehicle along the lines of an M3 - with a splash of musclecar thrown in.

Camaro is a coupe. A ponycar. Aimed squarely at the Mustang, 350Z and RX-8 (but for less money than the second two), while blowing the shoebox imports clean out of the water (Evo, WRX).

guionM

If I'm not mistaken, the cost of manufacture between the HF V6 and the LS1 (outside of the LS1's development cost heven been paid for since it's been around since '97) is very close to the same. I'm sure we can get one of the engineers here familiar with this to chime in. Either way, it's not like the HF V6 cost 10 times more to make than an LS1, and the image boost is worth it, even at a extra few hundred dollars to the base.

Few false assumptions here. Camaro died because a number of reasons, but the most glaring of all is simply that there wasn't a RWD chassis at the time to develop it on, and it didn't have any fans in GM's upper management. There is most certainly a business case, & it's just a question of when, not "if" the 5th gen will be out.

Not sure how expanding the car line will lead to the death of any new generations. Can you explain it more?


Pacer, how about having Z28-type handling in the Grand Touring, and the 1LE on the Z28? Z28 has a history of handling, this might be a way to return it to it's roots?

Z284ever

That just makes good intuitive sense. The "Grand Touring" (or Berlinetta....I still like that name BTW)....may actually benefit from a still firm but more compliant suspension setting, however.

That's also why we may want to do a "model line up" mission statement (without getting into any major side debates).....so we can better define which should go on what.

dnovotny

There was the Catera chassis which was modified by the Aussies. This could've been shared and used for an '03 release of a 5th gen if the will had been there.

When you fill in the hole that was left by 4th gens with other cars in the lineup, there is little sense in introducing a 5th gen. You've pegged me as an enthusiast, but in your own excitement you've lost sight of the fact that many (including myself) are more than willing to buy a rwd V8 GM coupe that doesn't carry the Camaro name. I've turned 30, I currently own a '91 T/A (which I bought brand new and I'm selling now), a '91 GTA (my daily driver which I will replace in a couple of years), and an '01 WS6 T/A. I've been a fan of these cars since I was 10. I also live in CA where GM needs to grab new customers but I think you guys are stuck in the past, just trying to modify a formula that worked before but hasn't for at least 10 years.

Not quite IMHO. GTO is a coupe and it will take on the 350Z/G35/RX-8s of the world. The CTS-V is going after the M3, the GTO isn't in that league. Shave off 300 lbs., make the GTO a little more low-slung and aggressive in styling and offer a base model at a little under 30K and we have a 5th gen.

Over the past six months (and this thread has hammered this home) I've realized if this is what GM will offer as a 5th gen, I won't be buying. And even if it did fit my vision of a 5th gen, I probably still wouldn't buy one. I think the 30-45 age group will have the GTO and CTS-V to choose from and this or an M3 will be my next daily driver. My 5th gen is being built as we speak, starting off as my '01 with major chassis re-inforcement and a C4 IRS being installed. So maybe you're right and I'm way off on what a 5th gen needs to be. I just hope this unchanged formula (just better execution) will work again.

PacerX

That's what I'm thinking. Z28 = killer handling. But this time, 1LE gets a subtle, but noticeable badge - kinda like the WS6 badge (except I'd put it on the fenders too).

Something like:
Z28
350hp
1LE

I can't get it to indent right... I need a Photochopper to take an old SS396 fender badge and convert it to the above style.

First line: Z28 (big SS-style script, white, red or black on the inside of the letters/numbers with chrome around the outside)
Second line: 350hp (same script as displacement used to be, chrome letters)
Third line: 1LE (slightly smaller SS-style script, white red or black on the inside of the letters with chrome around the outside)

I figure 1LE might be a little harsh for the G35/350Z crowd, so we'll reserve it for the big guns.

Whaddya think?

PacerX

K, it's done.

Who can take my theoretical option breakout (in Excel) and post it here so folks can throw hand grenades?

I mean...

"Suggest improvements"

unvc92camarors

i dont know what all of you are thinking, but i certainly dont wanna see a "camaro gt"
it's like copying off the mustang gt, which i dont think is a way to boost sales, copying off of other manufacturers
if anything, call it "type lt" or "berlinetta" (i actually dont care for this one personally) but something other than gt.

[rant end]