I have a stand alone fuel system for my nitrous right now.
My main question would be can you use an alcohol or methanol gas for the fuel side of the nitrous.
Right now I run 109 Unleaded gas in my stand alone but would like to explore using leaded fuel, Oxygenated Race Fuel, (U4 From VP) or Methanol?
What are the comments on this?
Would using this only with nitrous, hurt my O2's, such as the leaded fuel?
Cause in terms of consumption, very little is used when the nitrous is flowing.
Also, Would you have to do a considerably smaller jet size with the Methanol?


Let me in on some input from you guys!

Joseph

 

WRT mixing higher and lower octane gasoline, your statement that "very little is used" is correct and explains why it isn't really logical. As a way to approximate this, let's assume the following: the motor makes 500hp and you are using a 150hp nitrous shot. Further, assume that the AF ratio is the same for nitrous and non-nitrous operation. Also assume that a gas mixture gains octane in proportion to the mixture ratio (more on this later). In the above case, using 104 octane unleaded in the main system and 114 in the secondary system give you a net octane of 106.3, hardly worth the fuss. And the assumption that fuels mixed in this way actually increase octane proportionately is very likely not true, further decreasing any benefit.

Using methanol, you need ~3x more fuel/oxygen. So, you either need to flow 3x as much alcohol as gas or 1/3 the amount of nitrous. I am not sure how this would work. In effect, it would be an alcohol injection system. The main benefit of alcohol injection is the charge cooling on blower cars. Yes, alcohol has antidetonation properties as well. But what the "apparent octane" of such a mixture is, I really don't know. It might be an interesting experiment, but I personally don't have enough motors to try it!

Small amounts of leaded fuel don't seem to cause immediate harm to O2's, but I cannot quantify this for you.

Where are you getting 109 octane unleaded? Are you talking about Research octane? Motor octane is much more relevant to this discussion, or at least it makes sense to talk about the more often quoted R+M/2. I don't know of any R+M/2 unleaded. There is an outfit in Ontario that claims to have 109 octane unleaded, but that has been disputed and I know of one motor that didn't like it. Sunoco has a 104 octane R+M/2 unleaded and VP a 103. Why do you need more octane than you have? Are you experiencing detonation?

Rich

 

Many of the local racers here that sell race gas, are selling VP 109 unleaded octane gas, Rated the same as VP 103 unleaded.
The reason being for this equation and problem is that 103 or 109 unleaded gas is becoming hard to get ahold of around here, And many people have leaded race gas in very high octanes.
I was having a conversation about the methanol, So that was just an idea, not really that important.
However, I would like to know more about leaded race fuel in my stand alone.
Its not soo much of raising the octane, just being safe with nitrous.
I am using a 150 shot on a tuned car. The timing is near stock, And I have no detonation problems at all, I use 90 octane in the gas tank and then 109 unleaded in my stand alone container. This has been working great.
Consider the following, .5 gallons in the fuel cell for nitrous can last about 1 10lb. nitrous bottle at least. So in turn, there would be very little leaded fuel being used, But over time it would and could be several gallons, Would this kill the O2's ?
Should I try to order some unleaded gas from VP direct and save the trouble?

Joseph

 

VP 109 is not "109 octane" as most people use the term. It is 109 Research octane, 103 R+M/2 and ~96 Motor octane if I remember right. Like I said before, using a small amount of high octane leaded fuel has an unpredicatable effect on final octane. At best, it will increase octane in proportion to the amount used. And since the amount is small, the octane increase will be, at best, small.

Also, as I said, small amount of leaded fuel does not seem to harm O2 sensors. They aren't all that expensive anyway so you could just replace them when they start getting "lazy". Just hook up a scan tool and watch the output jump around rapidly. If you don't see this, it's time to replace the sensors.

Rich

 

Sorry, I have read some about the motor octane and research octane.
I may try to order some 109 and see how it goes on shipping and such, It was just a good convience of getting here locally, And now that not many people are carrying it, It seems to make it a little difficult.
Just trying to keep it easy and looking at other solutions.

Thanks

Joseph

 

VP Fuels "U4" oxygenated fuel is only rated at 92 motor octane (as Rich points out, it is "motor" octane that is important for all out racing applications). The "benefit" of U4 is adding extra oxygen to the mix = more power. You are already doing that with the nitrous, so the benefit would seem to be questionable. U4 is "leaded".

VP Motorsports 103 is rated at 99 motor octane (103 R+M/2), and Motorpsorts 109 is rated at 101 motor octane (109 R+M/2).

You can buy any VP fuels in containers of 5, 15, 30 and 54-gallons. I buy C16 in 30-gallon drums and Air Race in 5-gallon pails. My local speed shop orders it for me when they order fuel for the shop.

The rated life of a stock narrow-band O2 sensor on leaded fuel is supposed to be 50 hours. I have my stock O2 sensors mainly to plug the holes in the header collectors, and so I can look at them with my Scanmaseter (the engine runs open loop off a MoTeC ECU). I have maybe 50 dyno pulls and passes with C16 in the tank, and have driven the car on the street with the remains of the C16 leaded still there. One O2 sensor seems to still be working fine, the other seems to read about 30% lower than it should.

Have you considered propane as the stand-alone fuel?

 

I have thought of the propane idea and read some posts on the board about it....
Thanks for the info on leaded race gases, helps out on my descision
Thanks for all the input

Joseph

 

Besides the strong smell, and the $8.75-$9.50 per gallon, i does make power.
VP Quote
"6% more hp on a dyno"(dirtbike numbers only)
"3hp on a YZF450, 2hp on a YZF250"

I have about 3 gallons left over from my dirtbike. NExt time i dyno i'll put it in. I'll post the numbers if any gains

 

Oxygenated race fuels are typically only used when power adders are specifically not allowed. You have the N2O for oxygenation. These fuels are way too expensive to routinely use. They also have a short shelf life, which is not something you want to leave in the cell for a few weeks as it may lose some of its properties. You are supposed to keep this stuff cool & tightly sealed to preserve it. Stick to regular race fuel & save some money.

 

I just want to find some high octane unleaded around here....all i can get is Sunoco 94.


I'd stay away from leaded....in the end the O2's will go.

 

I'm not questioning that the U4 makes more power, but as Lonnie points out (and I tried to point out) it makes the power because alcohol brings additional O2 to the cylinders. Good for normally aspirated setups. That isn't necessary with a nitrous system.... the nitrous can deliver all the extra O2 you need.

 

I understood that, i was just talking about N/A. I agree that it would be worthless to run U4 with nitrous.