Street cam with torque(full precise details)
07-17-2007, 06:54 PM
#46
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,525
Well at least someone is arguing the point not name calling like a 14year old who just learned his first swear words 
Brent thanks for the interjection of civility to this. I'm trying to behave but once a little kid throws a hissy fit sometimes the only solution is to get on their level.
Brent thanks for the interjection of civility to this. I'm trying to behave but once a little kid throws a hissy fit sometimes the only solution is to get on their level.
You want to really thank Brent - send him sponsorship money, or at least pay your lousy $20 to support the site. I wasn't name calling per se (the big bert racing was a joke, but it obviously struck a chord with you, so I'll stop) - just asking a seemingly simple question. Kids throwing hissy fits? Who's got their dad in here with the kids quoting silly Mark Twain tidbits in a patronly effort to defend their kid?? Good grief - you should be embarrassed. As far as stooping to a lower level, that sounds incredulous coming from a guy who posted a picture of a feminine hygene product in response to the last thread debacle. You're a class act, and everyone sees it You remind me of a quote I saw on a coffee mug in a truck stop in upstate NY once: "If you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t"
...so proof should be so easy! Post it up. Now I'm going to speedtalk.com to copy a bunch of cam related stuff to post so I can sound like SStroker when I want to debate the kids on cam stuff I really don't know anything about. The real difference is that I don't pretend to.
07-17-2007, 07:07 PM
#47
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Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Jackstandican
Posts: 3,144
I'll be dawg...
07-17-2007, 07:36 PM
#48
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,931
You called Brent in here because the pressure to provide proof to my questions is getting to be too much? You want to really thank Brent - send him sponsorship money, or at least pay your lousy $20 to support the site. I wasn't name calling per se (the big bert racing was a joke, but it obviously struck a chord with you, so I'll stop) - just asking a seemingly simple question. Kids throwing hissy fits? Who's got their dad in here with the kids quoting silly Mark Twain tidbits in a patronly effort to defend their kid?? Good grief - you should be embarrassed. As far as stooping to a lower level, that sounds incredulous coming from a guy who posted a picture of a feminine hygene product in response to the last thread debacle. You're a class act, and everyone sees it
You remind me of a quote I saw on a coffee mug in a truck stop in upstate NY once: "If you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t"
...so proof should be so easy! Post it up. Now I'm going to speedtalk.com to copy a bunch of cam related stuff to post so I can sound like SStroker when I want to debate the kids on cam stuff I really don't know anything about. The real difference is that I don't pretend to.
You want to really thank Brent - send him sponsorship money, or at least pay your lousy $20 to support the site. I wasn't name calling per se (the big bert racing was a joke, but it obviously struck a chord with you, so I'll stop) - just asking a seemingly simple question. Kids throwing hissy fits? Who's got their dad in here with the kids quoting silly Mark Twain tidbits in a patronly effort to defend their kid?? Good grief - you should be embarrassed. As far as stooping to a lower level, that sounds incredulous coming from a guy who posted a picture of a feminine hygene product in response to the last thread debacle. You're a class act, and everyone sees it You remind me of a quote I saw on a coffee mug in a truck stop in upstate NY once: "If you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t"
...so proof should be so easy! Post it up. Now I'm going to speedtalk.com to copy a bunch of cam related stuff to post so I can sound like SStroker when I want to debate the kids on cam stuff I really don't know anything about. The real difference is that I don't pretend to.
One question: if you really don't know anything about cam stuff, how do you know if anyone is pretending to know it or not?
Last edited by OldSStroker; 07-19-2007 at 01:17 PM. Reason: to soften the edges
07-17-2007, 07:38 PM
#49
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: WV
Posts: 145
Ss Mptr
Why are you always bashing Bret? Are you jealous or something. What do you have, or have done to be so arrogant and one sided against Bret. You are always whining about Bret doing this or that. If you don't want his advice or help, fine. A lot of people have worked with Bret and he has been able to satisfy a bunch of people's needs. He does not need YOU to agree with him to be a successful cam and engine builder!
07-17-2007, 08:54 PM
#50
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 1,937
I know Bret has sold hundreds of cams, maybe thousands and I've never heard a complaint, only tons of praise so he must be doing something right. Never heard a complaint about any LE packages either. Where's all the other cam/engine builders...oh they are too busy to spend any time on the boards with the peeons who buy their products...
07-17-2007, 09:56 PM
#51
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,800
Not everyone knows when they are having good or bad results.
I have seen guys lose low mile shortblocks and immediately recommend the guy who screwed it up the first time to someone else before their problem is even resolved. EGO is the explaination people are often not big enough to admit a mistake, not even to themselves.
Moral of the story is that you need to look beyond what people say to get to meaningful information. For instance my communication skills SUCK, if you can get past that though there is usually something useful in there.
On the original topic of the thread I think you need to look at results, one guy has repeatedly mentioned the little Lingenfelter grind, while not popular every car I know of that has run it has had great results.
I have seen guys lose low mile shortblocks and immediately recommend the guy who screwed it up the first time to someone else before their problem is even resolved. EGO is the explaination people are often not big enough to admit a mistake, not even to themselves.
Moral of the story is that you need to look beyond what people say to get to meaningful information. For instance my communication skills SUCK, if you can get past that though there is usually something useful in there.
On the original topic of the thread I think you need to look at results, one guy has repeatedly mentioned the little Lingenfelter grind, while not popular every car I know of that has run it has had great results.
Last edited by 96capricemgr; 07-17-2007 at 09:59 PM.
07-17-2007, 10:13 PM
#52
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Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Jackstandican
Posts: 3,144
Not everyone knows when they are having good or bad results.
I have seen guys lose low mile shortblocks and immediately recommend the guy who screwed it up the first time to someone else before their problem is even resolved. EGO is the explaination people are often not big enough to admit a mistake, not even to themselves.
Moral of the story is that you need to look beyond what people say to get to meaningful information. For instance my communication skills SUCK, if you can get past that though there is usually something useful in there.
On the original topic of the thread I think you need to look at results, one guy has repeatedly mentioned the little Lingenfelter grind, while not popular every car I know of that has run it has had great results.
I have seen guys lose low mile shortblocks and immediately recommend the guy who screwed it up the first time to someone else before their problem is even resolved. EGO is the explaination people are often not big enough to admit a mistake, not even to themselves.
Moral of the story is that you need to look beyond what people say to get to meaningful information. For instance my communication skills SUCK, if you can get past that though there is usually something useful in there.
On the original topic of the thread I think you need to look at results, one guy has repeatedly mentioned the little Lingenfelter grind, while not popular every car I know of that has run it has had great results.
I find it difficult to take anyone seriously if their product gives sub par results. Especially those who always give a "because I said so..." or "They break just because I have no idea why..." retarded logic.
Where's all the other cam/engine builders...oh they are too busy to spend any time on the boards with the peeons who buy their products...
07-17-2007, 10:21 PM
#53
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 862
Originally Posted by thesoundandthefury
The OP stated that he wants a cam that lopes like a CC306, but peaks earlier. You can make that cam peak earlier by either:
1. Shortening the duration
2. Tightening the LSA
Both of which will decrease the original overlap of the CC306, and in turn, change the sound characteristics. Hence, why you can't have your cake and eat it too.
1. Shortening the duration
2. Tightening the LSA
Both of which will decrease the original overlap of the CC306, and in turn, change the sound characteristics. Hence, why you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Why not do both? ;-) You wonder why I mention the EVO and IVC valve events..... there ya go?
-"peaky" torque curve (useable power band is shortened)
-decreased engine vacuum
-higher probablility for intake charge reversion from a later IVC combined with increased cylinder pressure from an early EVC
-later IVC will cancel out any lower RPM torque gains you would have otherwise seen from shortening the duration
-later IVC's and earlier EVO's can hinder desired lift specs due to decreased piston to valve clearance
-higher static compression ratio is needed to achieve the same DCR of the larger cam. This can be especially tricky if you're already close on PTV clearance.
All of this for "lope." Sometimes, what we can do and what we should do don't always line up. The only message I was trying to convey in my first post here is that it's generally not a good idea to choose a camshaft based on sound characteristics. And as reluctant as he might be to openly admit it, I think your Dad agrees with me:
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
Most of always faster's original goals can probably met with some performance compromises for the desired nasty lopey idle. Personally I would have a difficult time selling someone such a cam if it left some driveability (low-mid torque) on the table, but I'm not the one in the cam business.
07-18-2007, 12:06 AM
#54
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: houston, texas
Posts: 1,220
I find it difficult to take anyone seriously if their product gives sub par results. Especially those who always give a "because I said so..." or "They break just because I have no idea why..." retarded logic.
That line of thinking is nothing short of ridiculous. Never EVER in the years this board has been in operation has any credible vendor won support or established themselves any further in their profession by getting behind a keyboard and e-bickering. Lou Gigliotti tried it and was pretty much ruled a big tool by LT1 standards. Joe Overton tried it and was not successful and now Bret is following down the same doomed path.
-b
ps: Please don't leave Bret, & Ernie
Last edited by bdc95ta; 07-18-2007 at 12:12 AM. Reason: needed to add something
07-18-2007, 12:20 AM
#55
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,931
There are a few folks on this forum who I'd like to consider friends, and some I wouldn't want even as casual aquaintenances. That's much like the rest of society outside of this forum. I'm no politician so I don't have to pretend to like everyone. Life is too short for that.
Everyone has priorities. If lope is a primary goal for someone buying a cam, and he can accept the compromises needed to meet his other (perhaps conflicting) requirements, there is a cam spec that may satisfy that client.
An engine/cam designer can choose to work with the client or chose not to bother. In this case it might be easier to beg off. However, if the client is informed of the compromises and makes an informed choice to proceed, he's getting what he wants. You may not agree with his choice, but it's his car. A reputable cam designer will assure the client makes an informed decision.
Almost everyone in business sooner or later figures out that there are potential clients you don't need nor want because they are real PITAs. This is sometimes referred to as the 1% or 3% or 5% Rule. The % depends on the seller's tolerance for obnoxious/stupid/controlling/closeminded individuals. I have seen that % rise to double digits at times.
If you are an "expert" in some field, be it medicine, software, engine design, manufacturing, making war, or even architecture, it is aggravating to hear someone pronounce blatantly incorrect stuff about that which you know inside out. In the few subjects I know something about I hear it regularly. The most vocal spreaders if untruths are often the least likely to listen to the "truth". They personify the Mark Twain quote noted a page or so ago.
Making correct information available rarely if ever changes the "poorly-informed" mind, but it can sometimes prevent other folks from falling into the "p-i's" hole and perpetuating untruths. Sadly, the "P-I" rarely knows he's passing on bad information.
Part of this post may actually be back on topic. Imagine that!
Last edited by OldSStroker; 07-19-2007 at 01:49 PM. Reason: remove obfuscation
07-18-2007, 03:41 AM
#56
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Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Jackstandican
Posts: 3,144
If you are an "expert" in some field, be it medicine, software, engine design, manufacturing, making war, or even specing out buildings, it is aggravating to hear someone pronounce blatantly incorrect stuff about that which you know inside out. In the few subjects I know something about I hear it regularly. The most vocal spreaders if untruths are often the least likely to listen to the "truth". They personify the Mark Twain quote noted a page or so ago.
Making correct information available rarely if ever changes the "liar's" mind, but it can sometimes prevent other folks from falling into the "liar's" hole and perpetuating untruths. Sadly, the "liar" rarely knows he's full of bovine scat.
Making correct information available rarely if ever changes the "liar's" mind, but it can sometimes prevent other folks from falling into the "liar's" hole and perpetuating untruths. Sadly, the "liar" rarely knows he's full of bovine scat.
Why not direct your thoughts to the individual(s) you are referring to instead of showing off the dance moves.
it is aggravating to hear someone pronounce blatantly incorrect stuff about that which you know inside out.
07-18-2007, 07:16 AM
#57
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brighton, IL
Posts: 694
Not exactly the same thing, but it got me thinking about what happend with Mr. Horsepower & whoever else was argueing w/ him. It was senseless, now no more Mr. Horsepower! And I haven't seen Mindgame in a while either...we're losing a lot of great minds on this board, it's sad to think about.
-b
ps: Please don't leave Bret, & Ernie
-b
ps: Please don't leave Bret, & Ernie
Once you weed out the garbage, the debate between thesoundandthefury and you is interesting.
Last edited by 95firehawk; 07-18-2007 at 07:18 AM.
07-18-2007, 08:04 AM
#58
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07-18-2007, 09:23 AM
#59
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Location: Downey, CA
Posts: 1,406
actually listen to the pieces of information important to your decision. If
you do you will realize that you can not have your cake and eat it too.
The first three criteria can be met, but the fourth can not. So, decide
what is more important, street cam w/ torque or lope. If you want the
street cam w/torque you have many, many examples to follow. These are
real folks with cars very similar to yours with different smaller cams installed
that perform extremely well. With most of these cars the power is in the
details and not just in the cam. It's 1 HP here, 5 HP there, until you add it
all up and you have cars with 320-360 rwhp / rwtq.
So if that lope is so important that you will are willing to sacrifice low end
performance and drivability, and end up with a car this is probably in the
same peak rwtq/rwhp range, with not nearly as much under the curve, then
put in that CC 306.