12SCNDZ

Rich, The reply that Dana is referring to wasn't even in this thread. It was in another one.

Frank

12SCNDZ

broken sun shell. transmission will have no reverse, 2nd or 4th.



cracked forward piston



burnt 3-4 clutches.

Frank

Rock-On

Frank, In reading your posts I find, you make some pretty interesting points... being a student of these transmission, and humbling myself before you and all the world I come seeking information...You say that Gil hasn't caught on to the fact that you should never reinstall the load release springs..and as a matter of fact he supplies a set of stronger springs....and by installing these springs will ALWAYS burn the 3-4 clutchs.This seems to be a statement of fact. I guess my question is pretty simple...why do the 3-4 clutchs burn when one uses these springs?? Also you say a vacuum modulator will burn up a 60 E....Why? What is it about the vacuum mods. that burn these units up? Any input would be greatly appricated...thanks in advance Frank....Dave

12SCNDZ

Dave,
We've done many tests pertaining to the load release springs in both 700 and 4L60E's. GMs theory was OK...on paper. Let's put a set of springs between the top and bottom pressure plates to keep the 3-4 clutches from centrifically dragging at high RPM's. The problem is, fluid pressure can't overcome those springs enough to allow full clamping force on the 3-4 clutches. This is why many builders still suffer from repeated 3-4 clutch failures. These springs also contribute to the rev limiter being bumped on the 2-3 upshift.
We did our own testing with the springs, as well as followed what ATSG suggested, which was to leave them out. I haven't put a set of springs in ANY 700 or 4L60E that I've built in over 15 years, and I have no 3-4 clutch issues...Not even in race transmissions that are shifted at 6500+ rpm's.
I worked at a shop for 7 years that worked very closely with ATSG, and Sonnax Ind. Many of the products Sonnax sells now were products I helped create. The very first "Super Hold" Sonnax 4th servo prototype was in one of my 4L60E's. The very first Sonnax servo check valve was used in one of my 700's. The owner of the shop is an extremely intelligent man, who I learned alot from. I don't just pull ideas or opinions out of the air. If I have a strong opinion about something, it's because I've tested it.
We've tried vacuum modulators when TG first came out with them. It always led to burnt parts. When you build a transmission with a modulator that burns up after a few 100 miles, and then you build the same transmission identical, but you put an EPC back on it, and it lasts for 5 years, it's pretty obvious where the problem originated. I see too many vacuum modulated transmissions that have burnt up prematurely. You made a good point when referring to the fact that there are many outside things that control the EPC. If it get's wrong signals from those sensors, it will affect the EPC voltage. The correct way to fix this is to fix the problem, not further compound it by installing something that's going to burn the transmission up anyway.
The reality is, if you talk to 10 different transmission builders, you're going to hear 10 different ways to build one. I base my building practices and the parts I use on past experiences and testing. The way I build them currently works and lasts. If something else works for you or Dana, then go with it. I'm sorry...Sometimes I take it too personal when somebody else doesn't share my point of view when it comes to transmissions. I take what I do pretty seriously. That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, or you're right and I'm wrong. It just means we choose to do things a different way. I'm sorry if anything I've said has seemed like a personal attack against you or Dana. I haven't had the opportunity to converse with you much, but you seem like a pretty good guy. I must say the same thing about Dana. I'm not trying to have a "pissing contest". I'm just stating what I've tried, and what works for me.

Frank

viper03af

Rossler is the only one i know with a trans break for the 4l60E, he has them for the 4l80E and the new 6l60e hes working on those already!!

rosller did my tranny

it's a V6 tranny but they are almost the same 4 months and its good so far

i would have gone with Frank but i don't think he ever found a v6 tranny for me, LOL

mike 96 ws6

Great idea. Thanks
I have only built a few non 'E' tranny's {old school - TH350-400-700r4, C4-6, 904-727 ect.} until last year when I built the 60e in my TA. This tranny is,
IMO, in need of some attention in certain areas, which have been covered well in this thread, and has a poor chance of holding up for long in a high HP / TQ application without it. I agree with a lot of what has been posted so far and, as a newby to building 'E' units, am all ears. But I tried a few things with my 60e and am throwing them out here is a way for me and whoever else to learn.
BTW: And I haven't seen this failure posted yet, although I may have missed it, but the reason for me building my 60e was failure of the overun clutch function, {and have seen the symptoms of this posted several times} which was found to be a blown seal on the overun clutch apply piston which I photographed shown in the 4th picture of this photo album

I was looking at the dynamics of those load release springs when building mine and decided to keep them in place to reduce the tendancy for high RPM clutch drag but I modified the length of the springs and ground down the spring retainers to match the clearance difference created by installing a 9 disc stack-up for the 3-4 pack. It has worked fine {for ~25k miles now} for several 6200 RPM shifts but then leaving them completely out would also probably have worked fine. I was mainly concerned with part throttle 2-3 overlap and 3-2 downshift binding since this car was a DD.

I very much agree. The steels in my 9 disc rebuild set were very thin and I imagine any slippage of the frictions on them would quickly warp them like Star Trek. I arranged the VB timing so the shifts were quick and the 3-4 pack survived so far, but I would imagine a build with very much accumulation time between shifts, or enough torque to overcome the hold of the initial engagement of that apply piston and those thin steels would be warped / toasted in a split second. I believe sufficient apply pressure with less steels / frictions would be a much more durable configuration in that area. Good call there Frank!


Drilled to .095". and I believe 'initial' fluid 'volume' or 'lack of' would be the culprit there, correct?

My 60e had the HD sunshell from the factory which I didn't know till I took it apart.I had purchased a SPX Filtran {Beast} sunshell but it was identical to the GM part. I bought it before the rebuild after seeing the sunshell in 700r4's as being a weak link in those units, which they certainly were, but GM obviously recognized that weak link before 96.

I have had good results from the vette unit with the parts from the Transgo Series L shift correction kit using the spring arrangement shown here except I left that stupid coil spring spacer out 2nd go round and I used a TH400 coasting band spring in place of the stock 2nd apply return spring {difference shown here }
although that's with a sub 400 FWHP motor. But I would add a caution about anyone throwing a billet servo in a 60e with stock 2-4 band. There is a chance of damage to the stock band due to excessive apply pressure of the billet servo, especially if used with boost valve or increased hydraulic apply pressure via programming. This is a good example of how some of the upgrade parts need to be matched.

True, as , from what I saw with my <60k mile unit, is a high wear location. I installed wider bushings {that are available} in that spot and also in the sun gear which looks to be an even greater wear area.

The Transgo series L kit {previously mentioned} has a correction valve assembly for this PWM TCC lock up circuit. The valve fits in the original bore but uses alternative seating locations in order to eliminate the fluid bypass. No need for the reamer and the related expense if you don't build 60e's often., IMHO. Reamer tool = {#T-77754-R2 Reamer tool required For Use With S74741QK & S74741QAK Sonnax # 77754-R2 $140.60}.

I used Sonnax 77701-076
Thanks

I sure agree with this statement, although I have enoigh experience to see what from Gil I want to follow and what I'll feel better doing my way.


Very true. And although I have some ways of building non-electrinic units that I believe in with older tranny's, I am new to the E versions and value the knowledge I have as a result of searching post on this board by you an Dana and some others. Thanks to you all!!!

mike 96 ws6

Oh, and sorry about the length on that post!

rskrause

It was a good post!

Rich

SloLt1Z

My first two where 3-4 clutch packs, then I had broke a sun sunshell and output shaft I think that was all I'm looking for my receipts to be 100%

12SCNDZ

GM has never used a HD shell from the factory. They've changed the stamp number and design slightly over the years, but they've never installed anything as strong as "The Beast". Did your shell still use the 4 tab plastic washer that sits on top of the low/reverse inner sprag race?...Or did it use a plastic washer with 4 round lugs that goes on the back of the sun shell?

Frank

mike 96 ws6

Sorry about the delay in my response to your question but I spent over an hour 2 separate times {last night and Tuesday night} typing a reply with details and links only to have my ISP screw up my attempt to post it and to return to that post data via refresh {F5}. So now I'm over my pissed-off rant and I'll try this again in a short form...
{1} I built the 60e transmission in my 96 ws6 months ago and to be honest, don't remember if the round tab design was used or not.
The Beast, Sun gear Shell I purchased from Makco Distributing, Inc, which was, {according to the attached paperwork}, a SPX Filtran part #42298B / US Patent No - 6,561,944}{no advertisement or recomendation intended} had round holes for locating the thrust washer tabs in addition to the square holes that are used on the stock GM sunshell {like on a broken 700r4 shell {more 700 shell detail shown later}which I have beside my chair at this moment} and instructions with the SPX Filtran unit were included {which I have searched for extensively with no result} to the effect of ""this design thrust washer must be used with this application"".
I don't recall if my 96 60E GM shell had those round tab anchor holes like the SFX Filtran unit, which is in my lap at this moment, but the GM shell must have had the holes to anchor the thrust washer included with SPX part since I later used the thrust washer provided with the SPX 'Beast" part when I re-installed that original GM shell during the last assembly of my unit. {I pulled it back out twice to {1st time} check / correct 3-4 clutch pack clearance and {2nd time} install 13 vane rotor, Alto red 2 5/8" wide 2-4 band, and 7 friction Raybestos Z-pack stack-up to replace that crappy *** 9 friction TCI / Alto arrangement.} {you know why - APM}.
But if I remember correctly, the GM shell was identical to the SPX Filtran 'beast' part visually as far as structural dementions including 4 extra round holes, and both 60e and Filtran Beast designs were much improved over the 700r4 shell I pulled out of my last 700 build which had the splined collar strpped free from the shell housing, and I managed to find a photo I took of that shell seen here.


Oh, and since I have your expert attention for now, another question if you have time:
Have you run across many broken aux. valve body cover plates on 700 / 4l60's?
This is the second one I've seen like this shown here..
Thanks for your help Frank,
and please continue to post your knowledge for those of us that are much less experienced. It has been very helpful to me and help with tranny solutions has been hard to find in some professional builders that are evidently of the opinion that since they have some knowledge of the 'VOO DOO' of automatic tranny repair, it must be kept "top secret". That is a selfish attitude IMO and although I have little knowledge in some areas, I try to extend what I do know to anyone that I can help. I guess it has to do with my belief in the phrase "what goes around, comes around".
I wish good things for you.
Again, Thanks!!!

12SCNDZ

I've never seen an auxillary cover broken like that. Did they come out of the transmission like that? Was the spring in the input accumulator the stock spring?

Frank

magicvega

I broke the piston and burnt the clutch packs in mine.

mike 96 ws6

I don't remember what accumulator spring was used on the first one of these I saw but the one in the picture came out of a tranny that I was told was mostly track only, no accumulator spring was used behind the input accumulator piston and there was also no spring used in one of either the case with the 3-4 piston or cover with the 1-2 piston but I don't remember which {likely the 1-2}.
And it had been beat on with slicks at the track {3rd gen Camaro I think}. This is the same unit that the broken sunshell I limked was in.

Rodney Z28

great informative post!