Sarcasm is a simple remark...Al's been spouting this drivel to anyone who might see the void Chevy has dug for themselves...and complain that the Hiatus we've been forced to endure might be extended.

If all of us simply kissed GM's backside daily, like Al, hell they wouldn't have to do a damned thing but blow more sunshine up our backsides.

GM needs to get their crap together, sooner not later......that's not anti-GM, it's the hard truth.

 

Without reading this entire thread, simply because I got sick of reading people still speculating that the new Camaro will be based on the Torana chassis (ain't gonna happen!!) I'll say that Zeta is not a "Carryover platform."

It's a cheaper Sigma, which is what it was from its inception. For those that have followed on C&G, all along Zeta has been given a different, unofficial name until GM came right out and said "Hey, lets call this Zeta." Zeta is the same as Sigma Mass, Sigma Lite or Velite. Whatever platform name you wish to pick it out as being rumored as.

It's not an inferior platform. It's a cheapened version of Sigma, which is what I've been saying (along with others) for umm...years

 

Cheaper Sigma.

We've been hearing that for, oh say...a couple of years now.

First you have to accept the premise that Sigma is expensive. A premise that I don't buy. What is so expensive about Sigma? It's structure is made out of the same steel as any other GM car. The steel parts are no more expensive than any Cavalier or Impala. The suspension costs abit more than the absolute bottom of the barrel components that GM typically uses in passenger cars. How much more? Lets call it afew hundred bucks. So how do you take that cost out of Sigma?

Simple. You graft on those bottom of the line suspension components to Sigma-based developement mules . When GM decides to take cost out of a car...they mean it. It's not simply a matter of replacing "gold plated" control arms with "silver plated" control arms. These front McPherson strut and rear semi trailing arm "Sigmas" were the so called "Sigma Lite" or "Sigma Mass" cars that everyone keeps bringing up.

But guess what? Once you've dumbed down Sigma sufficiently.....you may realise that you've already got a sufficiently cheap architecture already developed. The V-car. Give it a snappy new name (Zeta/VE) and you're done. I've been digging for the better part of a year...and I'm pretty sure that's what's happening.

As we've already mentioned, V-car (and GM2800) was looked at by GM 8 or 9 years ago as a Camaro starting point....and dropped.

So, what's wrong with V-car, besides it's high mass, large size and high firewall? It's fine I suppose. Until you compare it to Sigma or some other modern car.

Recently, I had a chance to drive both a GTO and CTS (with Sport Package), around an autocross track. The GTO was very nice. 350 hp and six speed. The CTS however, with auto and nearly 100 hp less, felt like it completely smoked the GTO around the track. Sigma felt sooooo much better, that I just couldn't believe it.

The GTO felt exactly like a GTO should. Sigma felt like what a Camaro should feel like.

Big difference.

 

I am pretty sure Sigma uses Aluminum for parts of its suspension, whereas Zeta will use steel and it should have a shorter firewall, the main argument styling wise to a Sigma based Camaro. There is in MY mind a great deal more expense in using Aluminum vs Steel in a cars suspension setup. Also I think we could see some other 'new' improvements in Zeta that we have seen in other GM car platforms- like magnesium bracketry behind the dashes, and new front crossmember materials for lighter weight (see 01+ Montes vs 95-00 Montes I think it was magnesium but it may have been aluminum). Zeta is being designed for something like 500K cars a year around the world maybe more and in the need for that many cars we need a versitile, relatively cheap platform and Sigma because of expense (in MY opinion) does not fit the bill that Zeta can.

I think a lot of people are looking at the red herrings that GM is throwing out.

And one thing about the Torano concept does anyone know if it has SLA arm or McPhereson struts up front? Kappa and the Y cars both have SLA whereas Sigma (and therefore Zeta in MY opinion) have a different front susupension.

Who knows the Torano concept may be the Modified Sigma that was being run around a few years ago the size certainly does fit the bill!

 

Changing firewall height is a huge engineering undertaking. Changing that would probably make Zeta more expensive....not less. And why go with steel suspension components? The sub-$20K Solstice will have forged aluminum control arms...front and back. Aluminum and magnesium parts are finding their way into more low buck cars...even at GM. As cars get more content...manufacturers are under pressure to use more alloy parts to control weight.

If you really want to save afew bucks...rip out an SLA suspension system and replace it with struts.

The Torana uses an SLA suspension....front and rear...just like Kappa and Y-car. Sigma also has an SLA front suspension, but of a different design than Kappa or Y-car.

 

What are you talking about? I simply put the go buy a Mustang, since is so much easier then waiting for a Camaro. Im sure most people will agree with me.
How could anyone resisit such awesomeness that comes with such an awesome machine like the new Mustang? Can you hold off for 2 more years, while this powerhouse of a machine is sitting on Ford lots?
I know some of cant wait! So go spend your hard earned money on a car that you already drive!!
Dont forget...COLOR changing dash!!

 

Or.. just buy a 2005 Corvette like the one I drove today and stick with GM. I must say... I have never driven such a fast and well riding car EVER in my short driving career. I want the next Camaro to actually seem like it was cared for LIKE a Corvette. This 2005 Corvette just made our cars seem a little ummmm rocky and unrefined. But somehow the Corvette seems to fit the bill of non-rockyness while the Camaro seems to fit the bill of the badass with the bilstein suspension that cracks your teeth . The idea of a 10 second Camaro seems so much better than a 10 second Vette. Somehow I just don't like picturing the Corvette as a speed machine, it seems more like the car you'd take around town and pick up chicks in (that's what I would use the C6 for). So... when I'm going over the hill... I'm going to have a '99 SS or Z28 with 800 horsepower, and have a stock C6 as my everyday driver .

I know this is off topic, but I can't get over how much fun that test drive was! The new Corvette is amazing! It is so incredibly fast and the steering and acceleration is effortless! Get your test drive soon!

 

Holden will NOT use the current suspension on the next Commodore as they have been bagged by the press for years about it being very very old. Pressure from Ford with the Falcon and its MUCH more advanced suspension would be the minimum target with Zeta. WTF would be the point of the old suspension with a new pan? Holden are spending Billions on this chassis (way over budget last I heard), just for a new pan and more flexablity. Excuse me while I try to believe that............

I hope Mickey T can chime in to set things straight.

 

Well, I can tell you for sure that Zeta is not a "clean sheet" all new architecture. Like I've said previously, I've been getting conflicting reports -all from good sources- for a long time. They run the range from Zeta being all new, to Zeta being V-car with a new suspension, to Zeta simply being a carry-over of V-car. Right now, I'm leaning towards believing that Zeta is simply a carry-over.

However, I'm interested in hearing anything that our bros' from Australia have to add.

 

Every time,I see post like this from Doug, it almost makes me cry

it is me, or It doesn't look good for the Camaro?

 

http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/p3auto.jpg

as long as they don't borrow the sigmas inherent wheel hop , i'll be happy :P

 

GOOD GRIEF!!!

I come around less often and BOY do the rumors begin to fly!!!

Here's the scoop, as mentioned by our Aussie friends and I'll back up:

1. The V car is..... DEAD!! The chassis is going away. Bye-bye.

2. Buick IS NOT still deciding on which chassis to base their large cars on. This decision was made some time ago. It's just that it's known Buick is supposed to get a Zeta, and word's out that Buick is supposed to get a Sigma. People are thinking along the lines of the "old" GM, while GM is actually outflanking convential wisdom. GM may be slow, but they are completely reinventing themselves.

3. "Zeta" does not have strut suspension as designed by Holden. There are 2 rear suspension designs for Zeta. It is possible that GM-North America created a strut suspension that fits in place of the suspension designed by Holden (much the same way the Mustang has modified struts in place of the DEW's setup), but I do really doubt it.

4. It is true that Zeta is not a clean sheet design. It's based on "Sigma".

5. The Zeta's claim to fame is that it's a modular chassis. This means it is capable of being made in various lengths, widths. Whether GM-North America actually uses that capability and to what level is still unknown, but various versions of the car will be very very easy to make on the same assembly line, which is the main purpose of Zeta.

6. Finally, Zeta is part of the original GM-North America's "Large & Performance car chassis" program. It was originally to be based on the Sigma chassis, but instead was moved to Zeta.

Now, here's probally what led the rumor that Buick hasn't decided which chassis to use. Best as I can tell, Zeta has changed in mission somewhat. Instead of supplying large car chassis, it will be the sports sedan chassis. This means Zeta will primarily be the replacement or "complementary" vehicles for such cars as the Impala or Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, and the LeCrosse, as well as being the source of new GTO-type cars for at least 3 GM divisions..

The way I see things panning out is that the Buick RWD "Zeta" sports sedan will be out by 2007, and will be Buick's IS300 or M45. The FWD LeCrosse is now Buick's entry level car, the way the FWD I35 or 300 is for Infinity & Lexus. The upcoming revised FWD Buick "G" body will continue till the soon to be revised Cadillac DeVille is phased out and both are replaced by a Sigma based car late in the decade. This is Buick's LS430 or Q45.

Things to remember about the Zeta:

* It will be built primarily in one plant here. More as other versions come on line.
* It will be primarily a performance car chassis. It will not directly replace volume FWD sedans, at least not at first.
* It will cost more and be marketed above the level of budget Impalas, Grand Prixs & LeCrosses. It probally won't be expensive, but don't expect it to match the $21,000 base price of an Impala. It won't.
*Sigma will still be GM's premium chassis (despite being the step off point for Zeta). Combined with the fact that Buick's moving upmarket mean that it's inevitable that soon or later, it will get a version of the Sigma.

 

2 questions Guy.

1) Then what differentiates Zeta from Sigma?

2) What effect does Zeta have/have not on Sigma's redo (which includes substantial suspension revisions), in '07/'08?

 

To sum it up in a nutshell, Zeta is a Holden-ized Sigma.

Holden got Zeta development because they have proven capability in making numerous configuations of cars off of a chassis. Essentially, GM-NA gave Holden the assignment of finding a low-cost way of making the Sigma flexible and cheaper to make.

Basically, what GM-NA got was some lower cost suspension components, and a way to make the structure in a variety of ways, as well as an assembly plant layout.

It's still going to be a pretty sophisticated car, it's just going to be cost efficient for GM to make it. Sort of the way the Kappa is a more cost efficient way for GM to make a Corvette-like chassis.

 

Usually our info coincides pretty closely. This time it differs.

It is my understanding that Zeta is a NA-ized V-car, modified to fit our manufacturing process.

We need to compare notes, Guy.